We want the iconic design of Warcraft 3 (or acceptable game logic)

General Discussion
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We want the iconic design of Warcraft 3 without new mechanics and rules. Removing 3rd level of Spiked Barricades, Sundering Blades, Orb of Fire new effect (reducing healing and regeneration), Black Arrow sharing its effect with Life Drain, new Necromancer’s conception, mechanic of Ritual Dagger - all those doesn’t fix the game, but make it different (and worse, if you ask me).

STAYING ON 1.30

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#notanargument lul xd

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Competitive multiplayer games evolve. Patches are introduced, balance is adjusted and the meta is changing. It’s just how multiplayer games work. Deal with it or stick with single player or custom games.

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Necro are actually good.

Cripple early means that it COMES BEFORE tier 2 dispel for human and tier 3 dispel from Orcs.

Which means undead movement speed on dk army crushes.

But also means that u can pick other heroes like dreadlord now and possibly CL (even though he ability wise is weak) because skeletons + beetle could be strong with mass ghoul and fiends.

And its recastable like 3 times each necro.

Only bad thing in the game right now from all the new balance changes is the Ritual Daggers new 90 second heal.

*Also sundering blades being a little underwhelming.

Mayber 20% or 25% is better.

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Evolution is bad, just look what it did with humans… And now seriously. Games evolve, but sometimes unnecessary mutations occur. So many patches for so many years didn’t bring new mechanics to the game, and now we have this piece of patch. I believe balance can be improved and adjusted without adding new mechanics to the gameplay. Patch 1.31 will turn some quantity of people away from the Reforged (not considering technical issues). There is essential difference between remaster of the game and its revision. Well, I can’t know what those evolving humans would prefer, but I am for the remaster.

STAYING ON 1.30

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I like how you say you don’t want change and conclude with staying on 1.30, a modern patch.

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So, shouldn’t you want to stay on patch 1.10 then? Because, that’s the one without any changes… Sounds like you just can’t cope with little changes. Give it time. There will be 1.32 some day and you can then complain again that we should stay at 1.31. :slight_smile:

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I think you guys put to much focus on pvp matches. The pvp isn’t fun at all. I mean whats fun and RTS like when you can tower rush or blademaster rush someone or something? There is way to many cheap tricks and early game scenarios that destroy the essence of armies vs armies in RTS games. Like look at me i rushed a few towers by the enemy base and it only took me less then 5 mins to win a game, this must be so rewarding and fun. Get off your guys high horses, there is more fun, strategy and creativity in Custom games.

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New Necros may be good, may be bad balance change, that is not the point. I am not talking about balance here, I am talking about game design concepts. Acolyte self sacrifice - good, UD hero sacrificing a unit - good, frail Necromancer is able to sacrifice much stronger unit - bad - doesn’t fit in main game conception IMO.

Ritual Dagger is not so bad conceptually, but seems to me, it is just unjustified multiplication of entities.

Sundering Blades borrows its idea from Blacksmith upgrades (and so is bad conception), and again - is just unjustified multiplication of entities.

STAYING ON 1.30

I do not say I don’t want changes at all, but I don’t want changes that distort game’s core design.

STAYING ON 1.30

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I see your reasoning and I agree with you on the most point, and it is great that you are stating to people that refuse to understand disliking a patch that changes the game’s core design is not the same as disliking every new patch.

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Whoah, calm down, dude :smiley: And I can’t face reality? The OP’s the one can’t face the fact that the game is evolving. And how many multiplayer games that are still supported by the devs you know, that do not get any kind of balance changes or other adjustments? To me it just seems like that people have been playing the same old meta for so long, simply because the game wasn’t actively supported anymore (a couple of updates every few years or so doesn’t really count). And now they don’t realize that normally games do constantly get updates and patches. Developing the initial release and patch 1.0 is really just half of the work, rest comes after the release as updates and maintenance, if you know anything about modern game development. It may have been the case 10 or 20 years ago, when a team made a game and then left it there once it’s released, but the industry has changed a lot from those days.

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of course you do :upside_down_face:

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‘Shut up you damned ghost’
Arthas to Kel’thuzad in Reign Of Chaos,Path Of The Damned Chapter 5: Fall of the Silvermoon, 2002

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so basically… go back to playing with people in GameRanger on 1.26…

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1.30 was the most imbalanced piece of sh*t ever. Current patch is still far from good but at least better than that abomination we had to deal for such a long time.

Would love to go back to 1.28 though

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Finally some sober evaluation.

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But the games design has been distorted since 1.29.

Alchemist heal no longer affeccts enemies, windwalk cooldown is changed so you can no longer maintain invisibility after striking, spiritwalkers come from Tauren Totem now, amd plenty more. To not see these as significant gameplay change is just being willfully ignorant.

It can be argued that none of those changes fixed the game either, but you seem to be fine with it. Just seems to me you don’t agree with the patch changes more on principle than anything.

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Those are all old games. And Age of Empires has received a lot addons and expansions packs, so I don’t know how you think those are games that haven’t evolved since the official release. Also, older Age of Empireses as well as Stronghold are almost 20 years old games, so that kind of misses my whole point…

Also, what core elements of Warcraft 3 have been changed? A few balance tweaks are hardly core elements of a game.

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Finally somebody posted real argument to the thread.

“Alchemist heal no longer affects enemies” - Well, technically it does distort the games design, but there is no any direct clue that Healing Spray should also heal enemies, and there is Acid Bomb that acts selectively. So we can say that they made those abilities to match up common concept, and of course it is obvious improvement in the ability usage. So it can be named as a fix.

“Windwalk cooldown is changed so you can no longer maintain invisibility after striking” - Windwalk cooldown always felt like someone’s mistake. I see no valid reason to start cooldown at the moment hero loses possibility to use the ability. Such cooldown has practically no sense at all. Cooldown starting at the moment hero breaks Windwalk makes much more sense, and without a doubt this can be named as a fix.

“Spiritwalkers come from Tauren Totem now” - Well, technically it does distort the games design, but conceptually Spirit Walkers fit to the Tauren Totem more than they fit to the Spirit Lodge, at least according to my vision. I presume that original idea was to have Spirit Walkers at the Tauren Totem, but then somebody made a decision to have all the casters at the same building. IMO this change improves the games design, so I can name it as a fix. To be honest, I always wanted to see Spirit Walkers at the Tauren Totem. Moreover, I would like to see Obsidian Statues at the Temple of the Damned, simply because it makes more sense (according to my vision).

I did not say I don’t want gameplay changes at all, but I don’t want changes that distort (spoil) original design concepts.

Would you like to see minions (those yellow ones) in the game, if their adding will significantly improve the balance?.. Everything should have some red line, 1.31 has crossed it.

STAYING ON 1.30

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So that’s your red line. Or is it?

Based on your explanation, it seems to me that the Orb of Fire and Necromancer are mechanics changes that would cross your red line.

However you listed a bunch of other ones and lumped them into your ‘core mechanics were changed!’ argument that seem acceptable based on your assessment of previous patches.

  • Life Drain creating a Dark Minion - It can be argued that this should have always been a part of the kit, just never fully realized. It is different but also thematic, and overall doesn’t make Life Drain any more significantly imbalanced especially if used to end a unit’s life (thus lowering full Damage potential)

  • Sundering Blades - It’s a passive DPS upgrade for what the Knight already does. I see no mechanics impact here.

  • Ritual Dagger - It got nerfed so hard so honestly I don’t see the practical viability of this item. At most it’s an EXP-denial item, but is that necessarily game-changing? Too early to tell for the purpose of discussion.

  • Spiked Barricades - This is just streamlining. Honestly if you’re okay with Cannon Towers gaining Mortar Team’s upgrade or Acolytes getting 4hp/s, then I don’t see what is bad about this. It’s better defense streamlining that doesn’t change overall mechanics.

So it comes down to (IMO) two things that cross the red line. And it’s really up to you how you choose to define that red line, but I think it’s dishonest to list the entire patch when you are more-than-willing to accept changes of similar value in previous patches.

Clarify what your red line is, otherwise I’m just going to point out more inconsistencies in your argument and (seemingly) continue to move goal posts, simply because you have not established what the exact goal posts are other than a vague ‘Any change in 1.31!’.