We are still victims of ill game design for E-sports

General Discussion
43

You know it’s a strange thing, comparing lumber and gold to minerals and vespene gas. One could say that different games are different here and I would understand their point particularly… However, at the end of the day, one resource has to be more like one than the other. With that said we can note that in wc3 that defense structures cost both types of resources while in starcraft only one. Is this good for e-sports? Is this even decent game design conceptology?

In regard to the fact that defense in wc3 costs both types of resources, I’m going to have to say that this proves my case even more…

How can you NOT have a defense that severely pushes the line of classification in specialization when it costs even both forms? A time and place for a unit quality movement speed defense structure…

HOW NOT?

It can’t be denied…

Defense has to be also part of a good countering system if it costs both resource types…

44

You make good points here, but ultimately your suggestion falls flat for having no relevance to the points you bring up.

  • Ancients have an upgrade to increase movespeed, locked by tier. This is equivalent of other Faction upgrades like Fortified Structures or Spiked Barricades.
  • Movement speed upgrade in the day has no relevance to increased base defense. In fact, this only promotes offensive use.
  • Ancients with increased movespeed in the day provides improved NE daytime creeping, an advantage they should not be given.

So honestly you are not wrong, you are simply suggesting a change for all the wrong reasons. It can be denied because it is a gameplay change that has negative impact to how the game is played. And for the most part, it seems that you acknowledge that you are disregarding game balance for the sake of your suggestion.

Being that this is an RTS and not a novel, there’s honestly no reason to suggest a gameplay change and not suggest a Lore change instead. If you aren’t going to address balance, then you shouldn’t suggest ideas that will effect how the game is played.

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45

Upgrades that cost both resource types for defense that costs both resource types is a grossly terrible concept.

In fact… it just immediately reminds one of how speed upgrade redudancy in zerg is also a grossly bad concept, however, not quite as bad as the prior due to it being inferior to the lack of their 2 sided philosophical completion.

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All this does come back to inverted incompletionism…

NE one speed upgrade that doesn’t even achieve unit quality movement speed, if it’s an issue then I know why… the upgrade shouldn’t exist.

Zerg many speed upgrades which implies the risk of needing the units to then become overly fast, and if they are then I know why it is an issue…

Because they do not slowly lose life off creep (and if the upgrades remain they should have instant reasearch)

Behold… inverted incompletionism from both sides of the spectrum.

46

Sorry did i read someone say wc3 is a defense game ?

“Defense is much more a significant part of the game of wc3 due to upkeep as well”

Atlas bro are you from mars or moon ?

Defense is universally a punished and fated to doom strategy in wc3, soo much soo that you even wonder why its even there if its being punished that much.

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47

I don’t think you know what you are talking about or what I’m talking about relative to upkeep…

48

Why do people always do this?

“Hey you know that game that came out 15 years ago, but people around the world love so much that its getting a full remaster in 2019? Yea it sucks, and they should change everything about it.”

Forum Mod Edit: This post has been edited by a moderator due to masked language as it is in violation of the Code of Conduct.

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49

“change everything” lol

Clearly you aren’t talking about Wc3 in your unspecified comment relative to the point.

a minor flip flop for one race and great opportunity for quality additions by taking away low quality redundancy does not qualify as legitimate change and nor should it qualify as legitimate change in anyone’s book.

I would say that a few things suggest some outstanding alterations though that don’t go against the implication of the design as is and if work in harmony with the design implications as is then cannot really be change but rather positive addition.

You’d have to ask the Original Designers apparently

Does the creep colony represent reactive quantity as the pure differential to the other races? And does the overlord represent aggressive low quality with the utmost potential *when used in tandem with the reactive quantity side because there has to be two concepts that come together to complete a “nature” for a race whos actual power is merely strong potential and has the same tech tree concept as the races from wc3 who have strong natural elements and can climb the tech tree in anyway?

Zerg is also a parallel production race implying complete direction situational.
There isn’t another race in all 7 of the races from both games that produce in this manner until you reach sc2’s terran reactor and… I’m not going there. Different eras are more different than different games. Stupidity spiraling out is only worth a silent war inside one’s self between conduct and rage and nothing more for what it already steals from one’s life experience as is.

50

This post makes me hate humanity.

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51

That’s why you play Zerg or Undead. So you can wipe humanity out.

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52

Zerg and Undead get so misunderstood… they’re just trying to elevate humanity to another state of existence.

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53

Dude, they are night elves, yes, NIGHT elves, so that’s why they have more powers from the Moon, the night, they are NIGHT elves. Maybe if they were high elves, wich got their powers from a SUNWELL then i think they could be more powerful during the day.

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54

I discussed this months ago but now it is about time for the game’s release and needs to be brought up and discussed again.
The outrageous and clear game design flaw that I am referring to would fall under the concept of “Incomplete Differential Inversionism”
We see this problem in both Wc3 and the Starcraft series, but Wc3 is the simplest way to see the problem for novices of analytics.
It is clearly identified in the night elf race as their units have the ability to cloak when it is night time, but then we see no corresponding capability of proper implementation for NE buildings during the day time. A proper example would be for NE buildings to harness the power of sunlight during the day, gathering the energy for the sake of unit quality movement speed while uprooted. The perfect inversion to units that can cloak during the night. This both establishes the identity and philosophical completion that the race needs to prevent deceptive illnesses from entering in to the competitive scene.
Think I am wrong? Well just consider how problematic the zerg race (as parallel to the night elf race) was in starcraft and how inverted incompletionism has disgraced the race’s identity(swarm) and rendered them Philosophically Broken according to the majority of the fans and critics.
The divide in the zerg race is even speculatively worse then the NE design because neither side was ever completed.
When perceiving the 3 races from a position of thematics… their represenations are as follows…
Protoss - Agressive Quality (Best represented by their shields and recovery) However, imagine a gateway that is produced before a pylon that quickly produces and holds a zealot that can be quickly warped in at pylon proxy on the enemy.
Terran - Positional Ability (Positioning bunkers with the ability to repair/salvage)
Zerg - Reactive Quantity
As you can see I have identified zerg as reactive quantity but due to zerg being a race that is divided and directional as it is, it may also be said that zerg lack also…
Aggressive Low Quality
And even though this concept is proper, it has not been properly expressed due to the negative connotations of “Low Quality”. The proper expression is rather…
Aggressive Utility
So now you are dying to know exactly how Zerg are missing Reactive Quantity and Aggressive Utility on each side of their division of function…1. On the Reactive Quantity side… they are missing the ability for multiple drones to be able to quickly fuse and unfuse from each other in the production of creep colonies and for the creep colonies to effect the creep around them to slow enemy units that walk on the creep. This is just a progressive way to qualify the direction of defense that is particularly not wise for the zerg race in particular. 2. On the Aggressive Utility side… they are missing the ability for overlords to mutate in to speculatively a ground unit that cannot attack(This actually justifies why overlords occupy larvae), but when itself is attacked by anything and loses life pool, a corresponding amount of broodlings are released to life pool loss. When burrowed, these units may have the ability of a delayed self detonation to release all broodlings, but perhaps these units would be blind, particularly underground in order to “properly complete the inversion” of overlords that are used for vision! Once again we see this concept pop up. (Note the natural aggressive nature of overlords as they are immediately sent out to scout) 3. Even after the 2 points prior, there is still the issue of zerg warrior movement speed and too many different units that need speed research. However, I believe the simple solution is to make the research of the speed upgrades faster if not instantaneous with proper explanation from lore. So as you can see, the problem is much more severe and complex with the zerg race as it is to the Night Elf race. This is due to the Night Elf merely trying to find its identity through schematics of melee and missle roles which goes to show how all the races achieve their differential in Wc3 where as the races in starcraft achieve their identity through the aim of each being entirely different. Why do all the work in putting out such great graphics for wc3 if you would not fix something so simple and profound as this for the sake of what is clearly beautiful and harmonious to the community, particularly the competitive scene?
If anything, remember this about the culture of blizzard’s competitive strategy gaming scene…
-The best defense is a good offense
-Do not make units unless you are going to use them
And what does this mean for the races of NE and Zerg whos defense structures are alive? (sacrificed from drone or wisp)

Sir, this is an Arby’s.

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55

I tried making something but its hard to find people to help or are interested in an unfinished map [Altered Melee] - Big Game Hunters 3v3 on Twisted Meadows | HIVE

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56

i will sympathise with you mate, you’re right, its not easy at all…

i myself develop my map in a closed environment with 3 online friends i know for 3 years now and while they are generally good people. ive come to expect that ultimately i am the alpha and omega of my map. i can’t really expect my friends to be interested or help me.

maybe if i’m lucky they will help me test if they have proper time once a month.

the true driving force of my map has always been myself. and i have found that there is more chance other “Mapmakers” will give an opinion or 2 or an idea or be willing to test every now and then.

the truth is, while in my original post here, i did say people are just lazy and unwilling to support and encourage mapmakers…

i realize mapmaking, although not even close enough to actual game design… is still in essence… game desgin :slightly_smiling_face: hence the people that get involved over the course of time if they work hard they somewhat enhance their skills in coming up with new ideas… thinking possible outcomes of an action … remembering a large series of information without having to document it.

and the casual joe isn’t going to just come up with a better idea then this “self trained” person out of thin air… YET i often used to find myself in a trap and constantly asked out for ideas… and end up getting depressed when nobody answered. nobody wants to hear how someone makes a something. they want the full dinner plate in front of them so they can give their opinions on after tasting it.

would it help if people gave a damn ? OBVIOUSLY… just the moral boost is an amazing thing.

do people often give that damn we all care about ? NOT REALLY.

so u gotta role with what u have. plus not like if they actually tried to help they can do it instantly, you have to make sure you specify the exact type of help you want… because no one is going to even try to examen a 3 months or 3 years old project put time aside and try to give proper opinions within the context of your project.

also i saw your projects topic is altered melee, Altered melee hasn’t been a popular genre within the custom mapping community. if you are really passionate about it then go for it… its your project, do whatever with it that makes YOU happy.

but also remember that fact. :slightly_smiling_face:

and find some friends along the way. my 3 friends and many more i have found aren’t hyped about helping me every day. but i’m sure as hell they’re going to be playing my map.

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57

I know hundreds of wc3, im in multiple clans on various servers and as you can see in the video I posted that I have testers… but your right nobody cares about how to make a map and altered melee might not be popular, but their are people who want something new and fresh for melee… so I do believe there is potential in a certain style of altered melee to become popular if I was capable of putting the quality content into it that I wish I could