Warcraft 3: Reforged Feedback

Hi,

I have been an active member of both the ladder and the custom games community since 2004, and have also participated in tournaments/leagues back in 2008.

This is my feedback on Warcraft 3: Reforged. The main reason for this post is to provide an additional point of view to Blizzard, as they have asked, as well as to spark a discussion. Here it goes:

Graphics

I think the Classic Games Team has nailed the graphics style. The more realistic approach statistically appeals to a wider audience, which is a good thing not only from sales perspective, but also for the games longevity and activity levels. From gameplay point of view, it is easier to tell what is going on in bigger fights. I think a more cartoon-orientated graphics approach would not fare as well nowadays as it did 15 years ago. What about 15 years from now? Gaming is generally shifting to a more realistic graphics model on all platforms (maybe except for mobile). I think for most people it’s nostalgia speaking, but we need to think what is best for the game and the longevity of the community in the long run. Additionally, we will have the ability to shift between legacy and remastered, so it is not like the old style that we are all used to will be gone.

I think the Classic Team have done an outstanding work on this matter.

Models

I think the darker/gothic style works well for Warcraft 3. I like the models shown during Blizzcon and also love the concept art that was shown. My only concern here is that the models need to be not only of the same relative proportions as the original game (hero to unit, for example), but also the same size as in the original game. Logic dictates that this should be the case in order to achieve compatibility, and I might be wrong to assume this is not the situation as I don’t have hands-on experience with the game yet.

I have seen people voice concerns about the ghoul and the skeleton models. I think the skeleton model fits the new atmosphere perfectly. Regarding the ghoul, I am inclined to agree with the general opinion that it feels a bit out of place. I think it should look more crazed and rabid with more impulsive movements/animations. I am not sure what to suggest about the art style.

Icons

It is clear that the icons are a work in progress. I think that the skill/spell icons should to be a bit more simplistic, though this might be down to personal preference. By this, I don’t mean Starcraft-simplistic but maybe less cluttered? I like the gothic approach of the item icons, but some just seem unexciting, the pendant or the town portal scroll for example. I think an item should appear more special and less like a common object, if that makes sense. That said, I think the end-state would be better than what we have seen so far.

UI

The UI is also a work in progress. Not much to say here other than personal preference. I am used to a bordered hero/unit portrait but I think borderless can work too if done correctly.

I don’t like the new spell/item icon positions and prefer the old grid style. This is something proprietary for Blizzard RTS games and I think it should continue to be the way forward. The showcased style resembles the one of Dota 2. I am used to playing with both and I think the new one is significantly inferior.

Gameplay

People have been suggesting new races or heroes. I think the game should not have drastic gameplay changes on day one after the release. After we have reached balance stability, new items or tavern heroes can be introduced (not affecting balance as much as they are available to all races and also easier to tweak). I think new race heroes, units, buildings and abilities can be introduced with expansions. A new race could be viable further down the line, but I think it should be designed to be weaker (stats-wise) at first, and then gradually buffed in order to not risk breaking the balance and to avoid touching other races too much. New heroes or items should not be overcomplicated as they are in Dota for example.

Mechanics

All mechanics should remain the absolutely the same. Otherwise the game is changed fundamentally. Everything from surrounding, blocking to control group size, food limit and upkeep should remain exactly like-for-like and not be changed in the slightest. At least for ladder.

Ladder Maps

I think new maps should be introduced and rotated out seasonally. Blizzard took the right approach a while back, and then the community complained and some old maps were brought back. I understand the nostalgia element, and no matter how good or balanced some old maps are, change is the way to go so that the game can grow.

Matchmaking

I am not sure about whether the League system that is implemented in Starcraft is better than the legacy one, but it is superior to the MMR implementation in Dota 2, in my opinion. MMR-based systems are not anymore accurate than League-based ones, however they introduce more toxicity.

Regarding search times versus opponent skill difference, I think it is better to have longer search times and more even games than the other way around.

Also, it is paramount that the matchmaking is global. As Blizzard has said, WC3 should have only one community. That said, I think leaderboards should be region-based. The system could look for opponents in the same region and if the waiting time passes a certain threshold, it could look in other regions depending on geolocation/time of activity or some other parameter in conjunction with skill level, the latter having more weight.

I have seen people suggesting having a split between ranked and unranked mode. I think this is not a good idea as it would divide the community. Custom games can act as a substitute for unranked play.

Balance

Human - Militia duration should be reverted to the old value. I think this has crippled Human more than anything else. Maybe it is worth checking the state of the race again after bringing this back.

Orc - I think reinforced defences applying to towers at tier 2 is way too strong. It encourages a style of play that requires the opponent to have significantly better understanding of the game in order to win. Towering strategies are a lot easier to execute than to play against.

Additionally, I think Wyverns should deal less damage, but have 1 more armour or some more health points. This would make them viable outside Orc vs UD and will also balance the aforementioned match-up a bit.

Bat rider suicide direct damage should be toned down a bit.

Undead - hard to say. I think necromancers should be reworked. Undead just does not seem to have a use case for them at present. I believe fiends should have 1 more armour, or if that is too much, maybe allow the defence upgrades to provide more armour. I think this is a good way to give UD survivability without making the race busted by giving it some sort of an early healing mechanism. I think Ghoul Frenzy should have two tiers - one at T2 and one at T3. The T2 upgrade could provide half the speed bonus and cost half as much. The T3 upgrade can remain the same, with the cost toned down a bit. Animate Dead should be reworked. Statues should remain in the Slaughterhouse and their HP nerf should be reverted. I would like to have the old Orb of Corruption armour deduction back but I main UD, so this point might be biased.

Night Elf - KOTG nerf should come in terms of entangle duration on units at tier 1, and hero duration at tiers 2 and 3. Treants should be easier to kill and Thorns Aura should be buffed a bit. I also don’t like the repetitive taunt cast buff that mountain giants received. It forces the opponent to be better at micromanaging units - the ability is easy to execute and causes excessive disruption for little effort. Huntress damage buff should be reverted.

Neutral - Alchemist acid bomb needs to be nerfed. I think buffs to other tavern heroes should wait until balance is improved a bit.

Automated Tournaments

Automated Tournaments are an integral part of the WC3 experience. They should exist in Reforged and should be region-based in order to not have to deal with timing issues.

Campaign

I think extending campaigns or adding new ones is a great idea. The cinematic that was shown was great in my opinion.

I think new campaigns should be available for purchase as DLC’s going forward. This would make the game more sustainable.

Custom Games

Controversial topic. I agree with Blizzard’s decision to prohibit host bots. Any service by groups such as ENT that has been provided over the years is appreciated. However there must be only one authority going forward, and that authority needs to be Blizzard. I think their response to enrich the custom games feature shows their dedication to what the community wants. Keep in mind that there are business decisions that the developers cannot override even if they wanted to. In my opinion, host bots improved some aspects of the custom game experience, but made others worse (empty lobbies). Whether removing host bots was good or bad varies per person depending on when they started playing, what their expectations are and what their experience has been. With cross-realm custom game support, I think the custom game community will be revitalised and more active than ever before.

I am not a map maker and cannot comment on the World Editor.

New Features

It would be healthy for the game to introduce new features further down the line. For example, it would interesting to include ships and water-based combat. This can be achieved by having one or two water-based maps in every game type’s pool which allow every race to build its own harbour building with ships, as well as use neutral ones. Having dedicated maps for this will not disrupt the overall balance of the game, and people can just veto the maps if they don’t like that style of play. Further feedback can be used to improve features like this one. I believe making things like this available only on certain maps is a way for the game to grow more aggressively without endangering the overall balance.

Outside of actual gameplay, things like achievements can’t hurt anyone if implemented correctly. They may not appeal to some people but they are easy to ignore. However, it is important for achievements that concern team games to have a winning clause - else team games end up being ruined in favour of achievements and that should never happen.

Profiles

Profiles should resemble the ones from the legacy version. There should be more portraits to unlock, but I don’t think having a free ones/buy-to-have ones is good. The driver for this should be around achievements and not around purchasing content for other Blizzard games. For example a night elf demon hunter in a Diablo demon hunter outfit is not okay. This applies to both profile icons and in-game skins.

Reports & Penalty

There should be a reporting system in place along with a penalty queue for leavers or people that accumulate excessive reports. Not sure how this feature should be governed but it should absolutely be in place in order to improve a healthy gaming experience.

Chat Channels

This should absolutely remain exactly the same. They are distinctive trait of the game. The communications solution for SC2 is abysmal in comparison and I think we should stay away from such implementations and not take risks in this regard.

People from all realms should see each other in the channels. Maybe add a tag such as “@europe” in the end of the name. This will allow for a more united community.

People without clans should be placed in the same channel upon login. Blizzard had implemented it at some point earlier this year and it was an amazing experience. Please bring it back.

Clan System

The clan system is the other distinctive feature of Warcraft. It is if paramount importance that this is implemented in Reforged as well. Features such automated clan wars could be good to have in the future.

Accounts

I think only one account should be allowed per battle net user. It would reduce toxicity and make games more balanced in the long run.

Cost

I think the cost of the game is completely justified. $30 is a fair price for the amount of game time Reforge would provide. People should stop asking for free copies or discounts if they have the legacy game already. The $30 goes to the current developer team for their efforts on Reforged.

Skins & Micro-transactions

I think skins are a nice to have feature in the way they were presented at Blizzcon - having a Jaina variation for the Archmage or a female demon hunter is good for the game and provides additional sustainability to the game via micro-transactions. Having a diablo demon hunter skin for the night elf demon hunter or something like janitor Leoric from HOTS would be absolutely horrible.

Any micro-transactions should not affect competitive or custom game play. They should only be related to cosmetic aspects, such as skins, or single player campaigns.

7 Likes

Didn’t read all, was just interested about what you were saying about the undead models,
For 16 years I believed the ghouls were scary beasts that had nothing else in theire mind then eating the livings with a big sharp mouth and claws. The reforged model gave me the feeling of a dumb circus zombie. It’s just not frightening enough. It needs to look more evil and less silly.

2 Likes

You know whats good for a games longevity? An Imaginative art-style and content.
Something the original WC3 Nailed. So much so that people still play and enjoy this game today. Forget current ‘TRENDS’ and all that b.s. following that wont make a great game. The magic of the original art style was that it immersed you in this unique fantasy universe, unlike HOTS, warcraft3 is as much about the lore as it is about game play. So if the graphics aren’t immersive people will complain and long for Blizzard to look back at the reasons the old artstyle made so much sense!

2 Likes

Hi Pete Stilwell,

I do hope that warcraft 3 reforged would include the following details which would definitely make warcraft 3 reforged an improved and more fun game.

1) New races in reforged:

Having a new race or 2 would definitely create the new hype for more people to explore as some may be good in orcs or other races already and new players may be able to start off with new races as a way to compete with the older players.

This would also create the hype which is the same as warcraft 3 first launch release.

We believe that the ideas could be drawn out from the races from world of warcraft which would eventually be a good idea to be used in the reforged.

2) Character design :

The characters could be made more cooler and cuter as the game shouldn’t be too serious.

The current paladin and main character didn’t look as cute or fun as the old hero during the blizzard convention showcase.

We do hope that the game wouldn’t look to be too serious as it’s really missing the key points of warcraft 3, which it’s key elements are fun, funny, competitive and looks cool to play with.

The previous version had all the key components in which makes it a very successful game.

As we do hope the newer version would simply have new competitive maps for 1v1 and 2v2 as most competitive plays focuses on these 2 arenas.

Just please don’t make another dota 2 character as dota 2 really makes warcraft 3 looks bad.

M y hopes have always been that warcraft 3 have a whole list of characters which looks really cool and we hope for more to come.

3) Item shop:

We do hope also that item shops would provide items that certain race could benefit from.

For instance certain items would be good for certain race or certain heroes or probably new items such as

4) Tavern shop:

Tavern shops could easily reuse heroes from world of warcraft as new heroes to be played in competitve maps during 1v1 or 2v2.

5) New heroes :

New heroes could be created from world of warcraft or heroes from the storm and inputted into the hero list for the current races.

Probably blizzard could help to improve in the character design but using back skills from heroes from the storm.

  1. Race frame missing in game:

The frame for the race during the hero’s being clicked went missing, as it was really warcraft 3’s icon which stands out and shouldn’t be removed.

For instance when you use nightelf, you’ll see leave box up frame around your character or building that you clicked.

That frame shouldn’t be removed, however should be improved with nicer design i feel.

It was really warcraft 3 iconic design and if you remove it, everyone will know that this isn’t warcraft at all.

  1. hero’s combo :

We do hope that new units or new heroes could help to improve in the combo during the battles.

in the past, we have orcs where witch doctor’s static trap & farseer’s lightning with tarun chieftan’s wave could easily take out undead’s mass fiend’s combo.

We hope that either elements could be added that probably new units could help to balance the game better or so or probably could fortify new strategies in play.

Just don’t create new units that are redundant and unpopular in game.

  1. design of game should be similar to heroes of the storm :

Design of game should be similar to heroes of storm as their grasses and landscape looks really perfect for warcraft 3 reforged to be used.

Obviously if warcraft 3 reforged uses heroes of the storm landscape or trees or buildings in warcraft 3 reforged, it would look perfect!

Heroes of the storm’s color and character design suits warcraft 3 reforged perfectly.

IF warcraft 3 reforged were to use this interface as a guideline they will definitely reach higher heights with it!

Even the skills of heroes in heroes of the storm, could be even brought over to warcraft 3 reforged nicely as new skills or unit skills which have never been done before but only been used in dota games.

Actually, heroes of the storm operating system is perfectly fine for warcraft 3 reforged as their character design and colors of the landscape is perfectly good to be used for warcraft 3 reforged even the size of the chracter is perfect.

  1. Races additional points :

My take for this would be warcraft 3 reforged could use skills from heroes of the storm to be used to create new unit’s skills and new units.

  1. Maps

Maps could be improved like using map that could include japanese trees or such as other trees or landscape that you could find in this link below.

  1. Introduction illustration :

The illustration and story telling in campaign mode should be like the ones from heroes of the storm or could follow the explanation from this link.

Even the buildings look perfect for warcraft 3 reforged.

I’ve always been a core hard fan for warcraft 3 but the hype died off in the past.

We really hope that you’ll look into this feedback for more ideas and hope that warcraft 3 reforged would be the perfect game for the future.

Best Regards,

James

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Hero, I read everything until you said that the new skeleton model ‘fits the new atmosphere perfectly’ then you lost all credibility.

Sorry, the new skeleton model doesnt reflect the new art style or the old one.

2 Likes

I like exactly the serious theme it brings and realistic models… Enough with childish graphics. Heroes of the storm graphics is one of the reasons I never wanted to touch this game aside from being a MOBA. It looked so childish game to me, let war3 be dark, serious and bring that to the competitive scene.

Disagree. same reason as mentioned above

No and no

And no

Can we stop with Heroes of the storm this and that? I recently learnt about some decision they did around some of its scene. Good, that doesn’t mean all this ‘I came from Heroes’ needs to be shoved to every war3 RTS player with graphics and things incompatible for balance and gameplay.


And I agree with nearly everything Hero posted (I wonder why… could it be that players that played this melee find absurd some of the above suggestions)

3 Likes

Impactr, you claim that Heroes of the Storm is too childish, but its environments and many of the models are actually darker and more realistic than what we’ve seen in WC3R

How about this deal?

  • You get: Everything you asked for above except no UUS.
  • We get: UUS (unlimited unit selection).

Sound fair?

They also have some completely ridiculous and childish skins that deserve no place anywhere near WC3R. Overall a lot of the aesthetics of HotS follow this more “silly and playful” artistic direction and I’m not a fan.

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I don’t agree. I liked patch 14 where lvl 9 was a high level and forced to 50% was not the case.

remember when they made the naga race and it was impossible to beat them?

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Well… some talk about high shoulders and big boobs but to me that doesnt matter. Actually I would love to see smaller boobs, not every female char needs to have giant silicon bewbs.

The colors really matter rather than just the shoulder pads or the breast. The grunt, the Footman and the Knight, the Paladin look perfect imo, the wolf riders. If they make the rest units that good it will be great.

I dont know if this engine supports different texture layers like the emissive and specular and normal but any way in which they can be made like the grunt is great.

Right now some art looks more cartoony than Heroes and that is: terrain, abomination, ghoul (they really look like toys).

I recently saw the heroes in Heroes of the storm and lots of them look like made cartoony and for younger audience. The abomination hero looks like a fancy clown instead of a scary fat zombie. Colors that come from more realistic textures and map lighting could help. The way of the grunt models now.

1 Like

In my opinion most important before releasing WC 3 Reforged are ballance changes, especially on heroes kit and stats. Why? Well, first of all I would love to see every single altar hero fully viable as 1st . Unfortunately in current state of things its quite impossible. For instance, Blademaster deals 26-48 [37 avg] on lvl 1 and possesses a deadly kit for any occasion with any kind of units in your army, while for example Dreadlord requires lvl 5 ( 32-42 [37 avg] ) just to match BM’s basic attack dmg (not dps), and his kit makes him kinda useless in current fiend/destro meta. Opponent with solid micro can easily wake up any unit under effect of DL’s Sleep, Vampiric Aura despite decent percentage of health returned is still quite bad. In order to take advantage of it, the one has to rush Tier 3 to produce aboms or to…upgrade ghouls. I mean, you guys cant be serious…You dont need to be Sherlock Holmes to find out what needs to be done. Either slightly buff basic stats or kit of every hero which sees litle play. Eventually, in case of example I gave before, only by moving Ghouls Frenzy from T3 to T2 you make whole new strat AND a hero (Dreadlord) viable.
Creating new race is in my opinion completly POINTLESS , there is already loads of heroes and strats in WC 3 which see very litle play, therefore it would be a hell to deal with when trying ballance things out with 5 or 6 races.

UUS should be in every mode and not an option, no reason to release reforged without it

so youre just wanting an HD skin?

Yes, obviously. Do you want WC4? Nobody wants WC4.

Also, why are you going around and digging up the dead threads from 8 moons ago? I’m not complaining, I’ve missed a lot of these.