Thanks for the changelog! also can confirm that slots 13+ at some point (not this ptr but might have been in a recent prior patch) can now trade resources and or whisper.
Just want to inform however, the community has noticed that SD textures (especially noticeable on Tiles) are significantly lower quality than they were pre-reforged and the quality has gone down even further in recent patches.
A perfect example is “Grassy dirt” in Lordaeron Summer tileset, if you zoom in even a bit you start seeing how blurry it is, it has been compressed several times over, ideally the old BLP textures would be converted to DDS losslessly so there’s no quality loss.
There’s also some missing textures for models detected in some SD / Classic HD maps in the latest patch, at the very least in the ladder map (1v1) “Tiderhunters” north of the goblin laboratory (bottom base) (and in the center of the map, surrounding the fountain), there are two doodads with textures missing Rolling Stone Door (Vertical) and Rolling Stone Door (Horizontal), they look completely white.
Thank you very much, now people that have friends can play again 3v3 and 4v4. I hope the MMR weight is fair for RT and I hope our feedback will be good for you to adjust MMR weight if necessary.
I don’t know why but in version 2.0.3. I get 120-140 FPS in Reforged and classicHD but in 2.0.4. I get 50-70 FPS in Reforged and 80-100 FPS in classicHD. I know Lua does not have anything to do with this but maybe look why it happens before relesing 2.0.4. live.
Only nerf should DR get and it finally got it. Moonwells are like this from start of Warcraft 3 and don’t need to be changed, also nerfing DH and Bears that are played most of the time is not smart if you ask me.
I should really strongly suggest rescinding the AT vs RT changes in 3v3 / 4v4. Yes there is the issue of forking a small playerbase across modes, but the answer isn’t to try to get them in the same game. It makes unplayable games. It doesn’t matter how much you weight the MMR, any even remotely coordinated 4 AT has such an overwhelming advantage against 4 RT that the RT players simply leave the game every time. That’s the net result- most 4 AT vs RT games just give 4 players a free loss as they queue again for another game, and all its done is skew the rather irrelevant MMR / winrate statistics while players who are just trying to play WC3 end up with even longer search times. And that’s even before the top players purposefully abuse matchmaking systems, like searching AT with smurf accounts with deflated MMR
Its really annoying to queue up for 4v4 and have everyone leave at the start and this has always made that so much worse when it was allowed
The player base is too small to get them into the same game. When my friends and I queue, it’s not that we have long wait times; it’s that we can’t find a game at all. We’ve sat waiting for a game for 30 minutes and never found one. When we played fine games after this change first happened, there was only one team playing against us, and they would destroy us every time.
Thanks for continuing to update and improve the game. Good changes overall, especially like how Life Drain was tackled.
But if you plan on making more balance changes, please at least look at buffing Beastmaster, Dreadlord, Priestess of the Moon… they barely see any play, even less than a year ago. Tinker/Pit Lord not looking good either.
Also Ghoul and Panda Breath of Fire nerfs were way too harsh, should definitely be reverted to some degree.
And not sure the Huntress rework hit the mark, NE seem to be using them even less than before. In fact 99% of their games are just DH+Bears+Dryads, maybe occasionally Warden first on some maps and that’s it.
And every 4 AT team I see is just a pubstomp of experienced players. And it turns into a 4v0 within a few seconds. Whats accomplished in such games? Its too small of a playerbase and the people who DO reliably 4 AT are the people you played against, who will spend all day ruining 4v4 for all the RT players like they do against you in AT.
There’s no clean solution, no way to solve it in a game with a playerbase this small, but keeping the queues separate at least prevents the abusers from making 4v4 actively worse. This change won’t end 4v4 RT, it will just result in more annoyance and higher search times for most players and have a bad impact on winrates as we have to concede games at the start.
AT vs RT has no place in 4s. We’ve tried it for years. It results in RT teams leaving upon start of match.
If you attempted to balance AT vs RT, the AT MMR adjustment would need to be substantial. Add +1.5k to +2k MMR to each AT player. Do not err on the side of caution here. Make it a large MMR adjustment. Blizzard you have the data - you know the AT vs RT win rate.
The change 4s ladder actually needs is having two leagues. A >3k MMR league and a <3k MMR league. This provides three positives:
Quality gameplay for average & better players
New and lower skill players are sequestered and will not be unmercifully trounced
Troll behavior will be unincentivized (since you will not simply ban them)
In before “player population is too small”. It’s not small. The average wait time is under 20 seconds for a 4s match. I would happily wait 2-3 minutes for a well balanced, high quality match. I think most non-troll accounts would agree with me.
Its also an issue compounded by the lack of ways to force players to stay in games. Team games like Dota / LoL can have matchmaking that forces players into unfair AT vs RT games, because they get serious account penalties for leaving. And it really ruins matchmaking when that’s been the case in various years. They’ve at times made it a voluntary option. They’ve had systems like “Each team should have about the same number of parties” to allow partial mixes (ex 5 player game lets you have 2+3 vs 4+1)
Wc3 could do one of those here, its a ‘solution’ but maybe not a good one. Give players the ability to decline to match against AT when searching RT, at the cost of taking longer to find games (by nature of less opponents to match, not a penalty). But generally that makes more wildly lopsided AT v RT games, as only bad / new players bother leaving that option on, while good players avoid it like the plague. And yet, even then its a lot of extra annoying coding for developers to ensure matchmaking works with such options.
The simplest answer is: just don’t break it. Its playable right now
I don’t want to get too excited but allowing AT vs RT with a weight factor is potentially a solid compromise to both sides of the issue, as long as you can nail down an ideal weight.
I don’t think this is necessary if they are able to nail down a good weight factor. However, I think they should provide some kind of indication on the loading screen or otherwise that there is a group on one (or both teams. Overwatch does this (or used to do it, it might now only show your own group rather than anyone else’s- it’s been a while)- it would clearly identify which players on either team are grouped. And in the case of War3, it should at least vaguely identify the weight factor.
I understand how you feel about this. But there is clear passion on this issue from both sides of it. People want to be able to play with their friends because any game is more fun with friends. But people who don’t have that option shouldn’t be put at a disadvantage either. Currently, random players are having a field day, while friends aren’t able to play together basically at all. I think a compromise that allows both sides to enjoy the game should be pursued.
Please don’t gloss over the part about “Arranged Teams in all game modes have a small MMR weight applied when searching.” The goal of this change is to make these games playable by giving the non-AT players an MMR advantage to compensate for the natural advantage that AT players have.
Also allowing duos and trios in 4v4 means not all matches will be a full premade vs 4 random players. You could have a trio on each side, or four pairs, etc. and these games will all be better for it.
I hope you can appriciate that currently it’s basically impossible for friends to play this game together and that they are trying to find a solution that makes it possible while also not making games unfair.
The reason why people leave is because these matches appear to be very unfair to the RT players. But with this change, they are trying to compensate for the advantage an AT has by giving the RT players an MMR advantage. If you’re an RT and you see that your team looks better (by MMR) you’re more likely to consider playing that match because it seems either fair or in your favor. The whole reason people hate playing against ATs is because they have a natural advantage- I think it’s fine to allow AT vs RT if they do something to mitigate that advantage.
Also- Since you’ll be able to form pairs or trios in 4v4, you could potentially see things like a team of 4 AT vs two AT pairs, or a trio and one random player, and such, and the disadvantage in those cases will be smaller.
I appreciate that Blizzard is actually trying to address this issue from both sides. I just hope it ends up working.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, a few “nerf this, nerf that” forum posters, who only play occasionally, managed to undo what we’ve been fighting for since 2020.
Me also but it will NOT ! Because is not only about matching MMR-s. You can adjust MMR-s but do not be fooled that just this will solve all issues.
Once again, I’m asking: please don’t ruin the experience for RT players by matching us against AT teams.
And sure, we can tolerate one match like that, but not 10x in a row against the same AT group until we quit War3.
These two heroes are in different situations and cannot be forcibly tether.
literally
Siphon Mana can push the Blood Mage’s mana over its maximum value, though excess mana drains off rapidly if not used.
I copied a piece of text and displayed some differences
Strengthen and weaken, nerf&buff.
Don’t worry too much, balance comes first, go ahead and do it boldly
I don’t see any such posters. I don’t go " nerf this nerf that" and I think Blizzard is right to try to find a way to make everybody as happy as possible.
Compensating for the AT advantage by weighting MMR can potentially allow AT and RT to be a thing. Also, allowing pairs and trios will lessen the impact of this being allowed, because the inherent disadvantage is lessened, especially if it’s a couple of duos in a match instead of a team of 4.
I’d like you to post a compelling reason why friends shouldn’t be allowed to play together (with adjustments to account for the advantage), because currently, that is nearly impossible. I’m a little skeptical Blizzard will get it just right, but if it is done correctly, they can make the game more enjoyable for all, whether they have friends are not.
I feel like you are opposed to this mostly because you don’t have anyone to play with (Neither do I- please do not see this as an attack) so you don’t see this as benefitting you in any way. But it does carry the potential benefit of lowering queue times for everyone across all team modes, while still creating (relatively) fair matches.
I don’t think this is a magical solution that will simply make all problems go away. But friends not being able to play this game together (except in 2vs2 or customs as it stands right now) definitely keeps some potential players away from the game.
I think the key you might be missing here is this:
Aside from the MMR weighting change, it is also allowing groups of 2 and 3 to play. Here’s what that means in practice:
You can have various team combinations like so
two pairs vs two pairs (this would be balanced and no need for a weight factor)
team of 4 vs two pairs
two trios with a random player on each side (this would be balanced and no need for a weight factor)
A team of 4 vs a team of 3 and 1 random
A team of 4 vs a pair and 2 randoms
etc.
It actually gives the match maker a lot more flexibility and I think MMRs will actually end up being closer together than they are now. And anything other than a full AT vs a full RT is not going to be that bad.
Did you read their post? They added an MMR weight to AT. I am not saying it will fix everything, but let’s see what happens. I am happy that they are aware of this issue and trying to solve it. There are always more ways for 4v4 AT, like full 4v4 AT can play only against partial 4v4 AT and not full RT, but again, we need to see how MMR weight is going to work to be able to judge the change. Considering that in the last 6 months there have only been 6-8 full 4v4 ATs on the leaderboard, I don’t think the number will significantly increase after this. The number will increase for partial ATs for sure.