Using the WC3 Engine was a Mistake

[Triceron-1519]

Let’s get one thing clear

You do not design and balance a competitive game to the standards of the casuals. Casuals do not play the game at a competitive level, so they don’t understand the nuance of things like bodyblocking or why the pathing is so stubborn and awkward and how to use that to their advantage.

If we just smooth things out, then you lose all the nuance that makes the game seemingly competitive. This is one of the major points used against Heroes of the Storm and why it has been consistently unable to live up to the standards of League and DOTA - they fixed wasn’t broken and because of it players deemed it a nooby game even though it’s just different.

Things like last hitting and carrying are frustrating for new players. Yet these are staple parts of the MOBA genre. HOTS removes these things, but it isn’t made better for casuals for it either. There are far more casual players in League and DOTA than Heroes. Why would this be if Heroes is designed for the casuals? Because it’s a myth that casuals need a game that is catered to them. This applies to many games, and Blizzard would know with how WoW is constantly criticized for catering to the casuals to the point where Classic was brought back due to overwhelming demand.

So no, redesigning the game to be for casuals is not the right answer. Worst yet - it’s made for no one. Casuals will move on after they’re done. And the purists never wanted this change and are stuck with it. So who is this new Remake for?

The difference between WC3 and other games that are remakes is that WC3 still has a defined competitive scene that continues to exist today. You can’t say this about Resident Evil or Crash Bandicoot or whatever other remakes are out there. There is a definite reason not to change how the game plays, and just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean you are any more justified for having it be changed.

[Budistul-2862]

This post is so uninformed and bad it’s a waste of time to read after halfway through.

[Cloud-1792]

I agree with you, they have leveraged the best game for them.

And yes of course this is just my opnion, maybe we can create a poll here to see who’d want the new game to keep the bad pathing and clunky movement, but I have a feeling I know the answer.

[HelleBarde-21774]

@Cloud-1792

@HelleBarde-21774

Stopped reading here. They chose the engine from the very beginning to make it compatible to the original game.

Are you able to understand why they did it? just think a little bit deeper.

They did it because of the purists, they are the ones who would immediatly go back to the old game if anything on the new game was different then what they are already used to.

We (most people) that don’t really play the original anymore too much, we wanted a revamped and fresh engine, a true remake.

There is simply no need to think deeper. Reforged was meant to be a remaster and not a remake from the very beginning. With the announcement they did go even further, making it more than a simple remaster. Well, it still is.

Why would you want to remake (which is way more expensive) a game which is still good and played by a lot of people when RTS is pretty much dead right now? If you it up you kill classic Warcraft 3 because you want the people to play the remake and also the remake because it’s not Warcraft 3 anymore.

All the things you (the “people which don’t play the original anymore too much”. By the way, I don’t either) want are things that I want for Warcraft 4 or Starcraft 3. But just don’t kill a game which still belongs to the genre’s best!

[Triceron-1519]

It doesn’t matter who wants to keep the bad pathing and who wants it changed. It’s not changing because the direction of this game has been decided, and not something we’d have influence over changing.

We can poll if people want WC4 instead of Reforged and we also know that answer. It’s gonna be highly unlikely that we get WC4 considering what is happening at Blizzard. Polls won’t change this.

[Cloud-1792]

There must be a balance between too easy and too hard, I can give you another example: SC2, one of the main reasons it failed was that it’s too dificult for the casuals to get into.

I completly agree with you about HoTS, but comparing it to fixing bad pathing is not valid to me.

PS.: Maybe they should add bad pathing to Starcraft 3 and it would be a success?

[Triceron-1519]

And consider that SC2 is already a casualized version of Starcraft. Better pathing, unlimited unit selection, all the features that you and others are asking for WC3.

And yet none of that has done much to make it a superior version of Starcraft. It is not that at all. SC2 is SC2, its own game separate and completely unrelated to how Starcraft originally plays.

That’s exactly what would happen with WC3. It would not play like the original, it would be something different, and not necessarily something better. If you think SC2 is still hard to play and not for casuals, then all those features you’re asking for to help casualize WC3 wouldn’t do anything either.

-edit-

PS. Maybe they should change how the Pawn attacks in chess because it confuses new players? Chess 3.0 would be a hit, right? We can both be facetious if you wish to continue this.

You can take this conversation and apply it to any game under the guise of ‘making it easier for the casuals’. Lets allow people to use their hands in Soccer. Let’s allow people to have unlimited movement in basketball. People find those things frustrating right? Yet once you break the ruleset, you’re changing the game completely, and that’s no longer the game that people know and love and seek to master. It’s just fluff made for casuals that the casuals aren’t even caring to play or master.

[DrSuperGood-1327]

@Xelfire-11383

Blizzard listened to the purists and developed Reforged on the original engine. The WC3 engine is nearly 20 years old and gives a clunky, poor experience to modern standards. Maybe Blizzard did this intentionally so that people go back to playing WoW once they’re done with the campaign. Personally, I think using the WC3 engine was a colossal mistake, one of the worst in the company’s history. This decision has me looking past this game, and hoping for WC4.

I think you missed the point. Reforged is meant to be an upgrade of Warcraft III, not an entirely new game.

One can play a custom map make 10 years ago in Reforged. It should even run like it did back then as well.

This is just like StarCraft remastered. One can play the same StarCraft custom maps made nearly 20 years ago and they still run the same.

@Xelfire-11383

When Ocarina of Time was remastered, the devs didn’t force players to use an N64 controller or a CRT TV.

They instead forced one to use a 3DS, which might as well be due to how gimiky it was. Ocarina of Time 3D Switch when?

@Xelfire-11383

Dota 2? Same thing, toxic purists claimed doom and gloom because the game wasn’t using the WC3 engine, and were proven totally wrong.

DotA 2 was developed as its own separate game. It has nothing to do with DotA Allstars even if some of the same people were involved.

@Xelfire-11383

They listened to old players like Grubby, who know nothing about business, game development, or programming.

And people like myself who know about all 3…

@Xelfire-11383

Those purists (who will realistically make up an insignificant portion of players) demanded the same game engine be used. But for what purpose? So that they can maintain a small competitive advantage, and don’t have to re-learn parts of the game. Or, maybe for the satisfaction of subjecting others to the unadulterated gameplay they mastered, despite its obvious deficiencies. You would really sacrifice the rest of the player base and the game itself for their selfish reasons?

Actually it is so that the custom maps, which are the reason most of the players still play Warcraft III, still work.

@Xelfire-11383

I’m tired of hearing people say that they needed to do this to preserve gameplay and for balance purposes because:

Practically no one has said that, ever. It has always been to preserve existing custom maps as those are the life blood of Warcraft III. Imagine Warcraft III without DotA Allstars?

@Xelfire-11383

Altering pathing, hitboxes, selection limitations, or networking delays does not detract from the gameplay experience in any meaningful way and only works to improve the gameplay experience.

But does break custom maps. Since they were built with the current pathing system in mind.

@Xelfire-11383

The only reason people are opposed to these changes is because they don’t want to re-learn parts of the game, and are afraid of losing their 20-year competitive advantage at using the engine. (this is in fact a valid argument, but is not what they’ll admit is their motivation).

Mostly because it would break a lot of custom maps. Some have even turned oddities with the pathing system into gameplay mechanics.

@Xelfire-11383

I understand the game is in beta, but for God’s sake, we can’t even easily bind items to hotkeys in-game.

Items are already bound to hotkeys. Numpad 1-6 are used for items. Unless this has changed with Reforged…

@Xelfire-11383

Grubby isn’t even playing Reforged, and probably never will.

If he plays Warcraft III at all after 02/2019 he will be playing Reforged.

@Xelfire-11383

Nobody cares about 20 year old custom maps anymore, and those maps could have been easily recreated in a modern engine.

Actually most Warcraft III players care about them. Especially those who spent hundreds of hours making them. If they did not, they would have moved to StarCraft II long ago.

@Xelfire-11383

The same job that took 2 years to do in the WC3 engine could have been done in less than a month on a modern engine.

Not likely. Asset creation alone is 1-2 years.

@Xelfire-11383

Sure, they’d have to recreate the campaign missions and maps (which actually has major benefits), but brute forcing those with the SC2 editor isn’t such an overwhelming task and only requires cheap, low-skilled labour.

Then why are there so few good StarCraft II maps? If anything StarCraft II need a lot more skilled editors than Warcraft III, which is why it never took off.

@Xelfire-11383

but as it stands the game probably won’t have any sort of long-lasting success when it still plays like something from a previous generation.

Tell that to all those who will be playing Warcraft III in 2029. Likely the same number if not more than in 2019.

[Riptor-1789]

People won’t admit it, but what they want is an easier game… that’s all this is. They don’t like obstacles and restrictions like upkeep, unit collision, or the pathing, or any of it, because it’s 2019 and everyone wants everything easy.

That’s how games are today, people want easy, more for less… and people write up these long passionate posts about how making everything easier makes it better.

I’ve been gaming since the 80s… easier almost never means better when “easier” simply means removing things you don’t like. The best games are most often the hardest games, and those are also the least popular games in a lot of ways because difficult games that make you jumps through hoops immediately excludes more than half the population.

You dumb these games down enough… they’ll be popular, very popular, but that doesn’t make them good games. What makes games good is replay value, people keep coming back for more. Warcraft III has etched it’s name in stone as a game that people can’t stop playing, even after almost 2 decades.

Warcraft III is perfect the way it is. The only thing it needed was modern graphics, and honestly a lot of people would even argue it didn’t even need that…

People who ask for the game to be changed, what they’re really saying is “give me convenience”, and convenience is the death of a good game. It becomes a race to the bottom to satisfy the worst players.

Some of the best RTS players love the game as it is, I think we should trust their instincts, and it looks like Blizzard agrees.

[Strio-1658]

You expect every Warcraft fan who could potentially enjoy this game to look up the details? Reforged means remade, recreated. I would have loved a recreated Warcraft 3, I have no interest in a Warcraft 3 Released.

[Triceron-1519]

I expect anyone with a complaint to do enough research to know what they are complaining about, especially in a public forum.

If you order a salad and you didn’t know it had strawberries in it and you hate strawberries, imagine making a scene about it in a public forum about how they didn’t clearly label strawberries even though it was all there and you didn’t care to look.

If you have no interest in a Warcraft 3 re-release, then move on. You’ve lost nothing here, as every preorder can be refunded and they even gave everyone who preordered an email telling them to refund if they are not satisfied.

But as I’ve said way too many times - sentiment will not change what this game is already is and has been planned to be from the beginning. This is not a completely new game in a new engine that only pays homage to WC3; it is purely WC3 gameplay with the same engine as it released originally. Treating it as anything other than this is just a waste of time.

[Strio-1658]

Ok, I had no interest in a Warcraft 3 rerelease when it was announced, just like 99.9999% of Blizzard fans. But, I would have had high interest in a remake as they presented at Blizzcon.

If you have interest in a rerelease, you can play the original still. When they announce a remake then make it exactly like the original I think we’re entitled to complain.

[Triceron-1519]

You must be mistaken because the only thing remade they showed was the graphics and level design, which is exactly what you are still getting here. I’ll even give you the WoW voicing.

Gameplay and pathing? Was always exactly the same as WC3 even in the demo. Watch it and you will see it still has terrible pathing the same as before.

If you had no interest in 2018 release, honestly theres nothing for you by coming here. Nothing is changing and even the sounds have been reverted to the original voices + female version DK.

And 99.99 percent is not going to help your argument whatsoever, so please spare me your drama. I don’t care who you think you are, your argument isn’t any more convincing with 99.99 percent made up statistics.

[GabrielReyes-2843]

It’s so funny to see people who actually thinks that “Reforged” actually is more than a cool looking title name.
It was,and always will a RE-MA-STER!
It was always called a remaster by Devs,It was always marked as Remaster,It has everything a remaster should have:

• Visual updates
• Slightly Updated Engine
• Same gameplay
• Some new little features

But do you really think that if it’s called “Reforged” and not just “Remaster” - It’s actually means something?
Do you even have an idea what is a Remake?

[Matteo-22406]

I guess…you are also a mistake?

[GabrielReyes-2843]

But still,even known that it’s just a Remaster,I can’t understand why some people are against something fresh and new,like new cutscenes or re-created cinematics?
And I already saw an argument that purists kept the game alive but that’s kinda lie.
Purists - Are the people who are for Purism (Google what it means)
You can be a hard fan of the original who played it to this day,but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t want anything new.
Being a Purist means want game to stay as it is in EVERY way,even visually,rejecting any changes even if they’re good
But don’t you wanna see new animated cutscenes? Or re-created cinematic with modern CG instead of 1080p version of old ones,but still with ugly outdated orcs and weird animations?

[Xelfire-11383]

@Triceron-1519

You do not design and balance a competitive game to the standards of the casuals. Casuals do not play the game at a competitive level, so they don’t understand the nuance of things like bodyblocking or why the pathing is so stubborn and awkward and how to use that to their advantage.

Saying that body blocking is nuance or difficult to understand is so pretentious. It doesn’t take 20 thousand games to understand how collision or surrounds work. Do you think that pro football players make the rules and decide penalties? The reality is that they are just there to play the game. What you’re saying is the equivalent of saying that sports viewers can’t understand what a tackle is and shouldn’t have an opinion, and that they don’t matter because the sport only needs pro players to thrive, even without fans/viewers/newcomers.

[Triceron-1519]

New fans can either enjoy it or not enjoy it.

I don’t like football. It is not my taste. So is it valid for me as a newcomer to decide how football should change to be more casual because I don’t like its current incarnation, and ignore the people who like Football the way it is? What basis is there for an outsider like me deciding to change the rules here?

Even baseball has its variants, but you can easily see how softball and teeball aren’t professionally played. If you want a custom WC3 then SC2 custom map is there for that.

[Triceron-1519]

The thing is there is no limit to what people want to see, and it becomes unrealistic at some point.

I’d love to see 8 playable races with 7 heroes each and all be balanced. I’d like to see new cinematics and new campaigns. I’d like to see co-op campaign like SC2 too.

Who is gonna do all this? It isn’t realistic for a ‘budget’ remake like this. That is reality.

[GabrielReyes-2843]

7-8 races,new unbalanced campaings and co-op is not so important.
But if they’re making visually modern game - Why not just add new Cinematic and Cutscenes? It makes sence and it’s not as hard as Co-op and Races
Btw,this stuff is for a Remake
Reforged is remaster - so it must be updated visually not only in models and screens,but in graphics,shaders,cutscenes and cinematic.
So the game would be pretty much same,but uet - really fresh
+I’m not asking more than was advertised in a first place