What are in your opinion the worst campaign missions and how would you fix them?
I, for example, really dislike this one:
Blackrock & Roll, Too! - Undead Campaign
Problem:
It feels like filler and just an excuse to fight orcs.
Does not feel like anything lore-relevant happens until the end chat of KT.
It “feels wrong” to be a mission with base.
Fix:
Get rid of the base and just make it so we have a big squad of units and just that.
Frost Wyrms can be introduced by having Arthas “learn” how to revive them.
A mechanic where you revive dead orcs to replenish your army rather than build a base would be better IMO - maybe even collect their souls to power it up.
I always found the Arthas’s invasion of Silvermoon build-up chapters to be fairly repetitive and, quite honestly frustrating on Hard. Sylvanas just charges your base with about 100 damage autos. Any siege unit is immediately targeted and killed, Cold arrows slow you to a snails pace and by the end of the trilogy she can two-shot ghouls. Also, an Elfen army marching straight at you from their base doesn’t really fit the whole narrative of “skirmish strategies and ambushes.”
Personally, I’d like a campaign series that’s more about making the Scar. Maybe make a level where the Undead are not controlled by you individually, and instead are sending units automatically against Elfen defenses. You control Arthas (and maybe some commander from the books) and you’re defeating Elfen heroes and doing side quests slaying/resurrecting various Elfen villages to bolster your forces.
I always thought it was weird that no real Undead level lets you play into the theme of, the more you kill the more you can resurrect to bolster your forces. I think it would be a cool change, and gives plenty of room for putting in nods to various characters from the book Arthas.
Early Orc missions - I think there was a kill boars mission. This could really be changed or updated for some actual challenge.
Night Elf missions - I remember some of the Tyrande missions being really bland. A lot of MGS-style shadowmeld to avoid patrols. It’s a neat concept but very paced . I’m not sure what they could do to change it up. Maybe have some patrols get distracted by Scout and have them follow it out of the way so that Tyrande can pass by, so you don’t just rely on Shadowmeld the entire time.
That level is literally like 1/4th of the map, and takes maybe 3 minutes to get past the doom guards (if you stop for everything along the way). Then you start getting troops and fight your way through an Undead base. (That is level 2 of the NE campaign for RoC if you’re wondering).
I really don’t think it’s that bad of a concept, nor is it very long at all. And you can technically just run most of it without worries, just stopping when they cripple you.
I agree, but the pacing is still terrible and it’s something I wouldn’t mind updating.
It’s one of those missions that is terrible for replaying because you literally have nothing to do but wait for long segments of time. It’s so bad that it stands out and I remember it even today, despite not having played the campaign in years. It’s also a fairly boring part of youtube replays I’ve watched.
You literally haven’t replayed it in years? I just did it a week ago. I think you’re over-remembering how long it takes. I literally finished the entire mission in 14 minutes on Hard, with no cheats. I’d recommend dropping like 5 minutes on the level to re-remember what you’re talking about, because obviously you’re over-thinking it.
And also, I think it’s a great level for newbies, as it forces you to recognize the NE passive, and learn how to utilize it in a relatively low-stakes way.
Which is why I said it’s not so good for repeat playthroughs or watching replays of it. I don’t think it’s a great level segment on its own, and I think it could be improved.
What part of my opinion are you misunderstanding here?
Where’s the misunderstanding? I’m literally quoting you, verbatim. The chunk of the level takes less than 5 minutes to do if you’re being cautious, probably slightly less than a minute for a speed run. And on top of it, it’s literally less than a third of the level.
Where is the huge time investment? The time it takes you to do that segment is less than the time it takes to do, say, the base setup for the level after it (where you have to defeat the guardians and awaken Malfurion). You’re complaining that a level designed to teach beginners how to utilize a races abilities, a race btw that they have never yet played as, is too easy for you, a (presumed) long-time player. You might as well complain that your base isn’t completely set up for you every mission.
So what part of my not-opinions are you misunderstanding?
It’s not ideal for replay value. Do you think it’s good for replay value and that it could not be improved? If you disagree with me on that point then say so instead of making points on why you think it’s good as a newbie level, because I never said otherwise. I said I think it’s bland and could be improved, because you can have a tutorial level that isn’t bland too with better design.
SC2 has this with Zeratul blinking to avoid patrols. It’s practically the same type of mission as Tyrande’s, but it has way less wait time and an active use of abilities. Even Maiev’s early missions are a good example of an engaging tutorial mission. This is what I mean by improvement.
It doesn’t matter if it’s easy to surpass a mission with bland design. It doesn’t change the fact that it is bland. It’s also not a great tutorial considering the Shadowmeld ability is almost never used in this way for the rest of the campaign outside of this mission. What you are learning is a gimmick designed for one mission, and it isn’t even a fun gimmick to use. Any ability that requires you to stop all action and wait until NPCs move out of the way is not an engaging or exciting experience. I think that whole section is something that could be improved upon.
I love Blackrock & Roll, Too! (except the name of the map, I don’t like obvious references to the real world - easter eggs are fine when they are subtle)
Nothing wrong in having an excuse to fight orcs
However, I agree that there could be a better way to introduce Wyrms: Arthas reviving them, just like what he’ll do with Sapphiron later on, is a good idea.
Also, another annoying thing in that level is the presence of Red Dragons. What the heck are they doing there, fighting for Orcs? It’s odd, because when the game came out in 2002, Day of the Dragon novel was already released and the lore was pretty clear about this: Red Dragons were already freed from Orcs’ grip a long time before the Scourge took over in Lordaeron. I hate retcons, but the presence of Red Dragons in BR&R2 was a mistake and I’d be glad if Blizzard gets rid of them in that particular map.
I played through the whole campaign a few weeks ago and I didn’t find that particular part so bland. Maybe it could be improved a little with a more dynamic pace, but it would be fine if it remains untouched too, imo.
You are wrong here, I absolutely LOVE blackrock and roll, it is such a “Warcraft 2 throwback” mission, I love the fact that we get to fight fel orcs in ROC, and it is actually a fairly up in difficulty over the rest of the missions which forces you to get better before the orc campaign.
I wish the survival missions however, were harder, the first 25 missions out of 30 are absolutely bland and boring, just the guys sending the same extremely easy to defend waves, and only in the last 5 do they send stuff but you almost always have time to defend.
Sorry that the second mission of the campaign, which is once again, aimed at accessibility to new players isn’t challenging enough for you. I personally like the mix up. You come out of an Orcish campaign that was literally, slaughter enemy waves and then mass rush bases, for like 5 missions in a row. Now you get a hero-centric beginning utilizing some stealth aspects to avoid unwinnable’ish fights.
Once again, your wait time is literally limited to 10’ish seconds standing still as a Doom Guard walks by. Sorry that that 10 seconds isn’t the most thrilling of your life, but waiting 30 seconds for a unit to train is somehow more engaging? You might as well ask for every level to be the “Free Illidan from the Cage” level.
You could make improvements to the level sure, but eliminating the entire Shadowmeld section is stupid. As far as enemies go, the Doom Guard AI will basically only auto you till you auto back. Once again, you can literally ignore the entire section and just run it if you find no value in it.
I agree. Although the Red Dragon’s tend to show up in a lot of other odd places as well. Like back in Outlands when you’re assaulting the Demon Gates, all the orc bases have 3+ Red Dragons in them. It would be nice if they found a better enemy to bolster the orcs with than anti-lore friendly Dragons.
Sorry my opinion somehow irks you enough to warrant you to respond?
I mean this topic is about how to improve the campaigns. On this we both agree, right?
Which means you don’t actually disagree with me, so why are you even replying? I didn’t say the level was unplayable or bad. Your last sentence summed up exactly my thoughts from the beginning. I didn’t say to eliminate anything, I said the section can be improved. Me saying it’s bland is my opinion. If you have fun waiting for 10 seconds and you think everyone will have fun with it then that’s fine. I don’t know why you think you need to apologize for my opinion. That’s what confuses me.
Blackrock & Roll Too!: I think the Red Dragons are present because those orcs are supposed to be old fashioned holdovers, still thinking they serve the Burning Legion and maintaining similar practices from back then (like having dragons). Also it’s interesting to face old fashioned orcs and it makes the mission harder, but I agree that the mission doesn’t really need dragons and would already be hard enough without them, what with all the orc bases that are surrounding you and other kinds of special units that they get (Goblin Sappers, Ogre Magis and Warlocks). But otherwise I think the mission is fine.
Daughters of the Moon (Night Elf Chapter 2): I think this mission is fine too. It’s not that hard to hide from the Doom Guards and avoid dying. Even though there’s a timed element in the sense that once daytime hits you will no longer be able to hide, you still get plenty of time to get through the parts where sneaking matters the most, and as said you can also try to run by if need be. Earlier on there’s also a furbolg that you can free to help fight one of the Doom Guards if you want. After awhile you gain troops and access to a fountain of health, and can fight your way through the rest of the Doom Guards if need be. You can also take advantage of the humans and orcs fighting the scourge in that mission.
There are some missions that I might change to make more manageable, fair or fun though, especially on Hard.
Awakening of Stormrage (Night Elf Chapter 3): Surprised no one mentioned this one yet. Timed missions in general where time is working against you aren’t that fun to begin with, but the rather strict time limit that you get in this mission can make it tough or frustrating, especially on hard and considering that it’s only your 3rd mission with Night Elves, and only your 2nd one with a Night Elf base. You have to get through a pretty built up Orc base AND kill 3 guardians and their minions to get the Horn of Cenarius, before the scourge chop down 100 trees and get to Stormrage’s Den. You can’t do anything to slow the scourge down either (well, unless you use an exploit involving a Scroll of Town Portal and Tree of Life to teleport over to the Den, but you aren’t supposed to be able to do that). This mission could be made easier somehow, like if you started with a Tree of Ages rather than a Tree of Life so you could get Ballistae, Dryads and upgrades faster. Maybe start with more wisps for gathering resources as well. Or the scourge could chop the trees slower or have to get through more of them.
The Long March (Orc Chapter 2): Kind of surprised no one mentioned this one either. In this mission you have to escort Cairne and his Kodo caravan across the map, while protecting them from frequent attacks by Centaurs (even from behind). These attacks last for the whole mission. What makes it worse though, is how slow Cairne and his caravan moves and how the Kodos are treated as mechanical units, meaning they don’t heal ever, not even at the Fountain of Health Oases that you reach throughout the map for “breaks”. Seems like nonsense difficulty simply for the sake of difficulty. They also won’t stray from the main route. All of this makes it hard to creep all the optional encampments for additional gold and treasures, let alone get through the mission, especially on hard. I’d probably make it so the Kodos aren’t mechanical and can heal. Possibly decrease the frequency of the Centaur attacks as well which can be pretty annoying.
I definitely understand that feeling. In TFT, the NE mission to defend Kael’s caravan on Hard is one of two missions I struggle to beat. (The other would be the Blood Elf mission where you defend against the second Scourge assault, after repairing the observatories. So many Doom Guards, no siege, and tons of air and Anti-Dragonhawks… )
It would also have been nice if there was some difficulty in between, as I’ve generally found Hard to be a significant difficulty jump, especially for those timed missions as you’ve pointed out.
Oh yes, Alliance Chapter 2 (Dark Covenant) was definitely a pain for me on hard, and is quite a difficulty spike for so early in the Alliance campaign. As you said you have limited availability of units and low level heroes yet tough enemies, and essentially have to work your way around the map by getting through several undead bases while defending your own.
Speaking of TFT missions, a lot of those missions are generally harder than most RoC missions. But I think some missions in the Scourge campaign like the very first mission King Arthas (holy cow a bit much for the first mission!?) and the Slyvanas missions were especially hard. Most of those missions had you having to manage multiple bases at once and/or starting with a big disadvantage against tough enemies. Ruins of Dalaran (Sentinel Chapter 7) was kind of hard too since it was timed against you and you were surrounded by Naga and Undead forces, while your Blood Elf allies struggled just to defend themselves.
Oh absolutely! The only perk for Ruins of Dalaran is you could cheese it with Malfurion’s Entangle Roots 1 shotting the casters, so you could suicide rush it after clearing some of the outter defenses of the Naga base. But that again needs knowledge of Banish mechanics, before you even get to the Human campaign.
Sylvanas’s first mission where she gets basically only Banshees and Obelisks is definitely a micro struggle, especially on Hard. The Ogres barely do anything, and trying to save some gold by charm-rushing the Ogre Lord is near impossible (as far as I can tell anyways, maybe I’m just doing it wrong).
Overall I agree, RoC campaigns felt mostly easy and straight-forward in their mechanics, but TFT missions could get real dicey real fast.
Aw man forgot about that one, it’s really forget-able and yes, the pacing of it is bad and the 2nd part where you get a base feel shoe-horned it.
Making the whole map a big jigsaw puzzle would be better I think - they just need to think up some other mechanics and tools to give you other than an owl and stealth.
That’s one of the best ideas I’ve read in a while, and it reminds me of the Tosh/Nova Starcraft mission where you assault that location.
The worst part by far of that mission pack is where you need to destroy the 3 altars to get the key-parts. Never liked using zeppelins. I think a complete rework would be the way to go.
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