Undead needs an additional siege damage unit

Competitive Multiplayer
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Undead has been lacking a decently mobile siege unit for far too long. Looking at other races, they all have 3 options each, with 2 of them are either highly mobile, or highly durable.

Human: Mortar, Siege Engine, Gyrocopter
Orc: Demolisher, Raider, Batrider
Night Elf: Ballista, Mountain Giant, Chimaera
Undead: Meat Wagon… And yup, that’s all.

Meat wagon is neither mobile, nor durable. But if you want to kill enemy buildings fast, Meat Wagons are your only option. They are excruciatingly cumbersome, fragile and just overall do not fit in most undead play styles and unit compositions. But if you want to challenge enemy buildings, you pretty much have no way around having to use them.

What if that changed, and Undead got a proper siege unit? A couple of options for consideration:

  • Destroyers get a secondary attack with a siege type. Same range, same damage, same everything as their main attack. The only differences are the secondary attack type is siege, and Projectile Art is something different to the main attack, to distinguish the attack on structures vs attack on units. Orb of Kil’Jaeden animation would look nicely.
    _

  • Banshees get a secondary attack with a siege type. Same range, same damage, same everything as their main attack. The only difference is the attack type of siege. The reason for banshee as a siege unit, and not a necromancer, is that if you are using necromancers, you probably will use a couple of meat wagons as they synergise with necromancers rather well, and meat wagons, although bad, still satisfy the siege unit criteria. But if you are not using necromancers, and are using banshee + fiend, banshee + destroyer or whatever, then you don’t have siege at all. With banshee you have. https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89gQNMGp4dU&t=1s
    _

  • Anything really dammit. Carrion beetles secondary attack as siege, same range, same damage, same everything as their main attack. The only difference is the attack type of siege. Abominations/Crypt Fiends getting secondary attack of siege. Freaking obsidian statues getting secondary attack of siege. Anything. Whatever it is, it is sorely needed to fill in mobile siege unit criteria. My personal preference is destroyers, as they’re actually used in match ups, and unlike frost wyrms, are currently only use Attack 1, while Attack 2 is completely unused, and can be purposed purely for siege damage, with structures as allowed targets, similar to chimaera’s siege attack.

1 Like
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Yes, 1=Meat Wagoon, on of the bests, can also generate corpses, necro-wagoon is very hard to counter - if not impossible. What glaive thrower or ballista can do additionally? nothing!

2= Frost Wyrms, (did you forget about them?) Insane damage, they can just froze towers (render them unable to attack - did you get it? DISABLE TOWER ATTACK!!! - for me this is almost like a cheat … ) they have Magic attack - ok not Siege but even better - anyway they primary used for Siege-ing enemy base.
+Over 100 damage on each attack, I think life 1300… wow
Again about attack type not being Siege - I think this was tuned, to be at least counterable by Dryads or anti magic units, otherwise they could be too strong.

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necro-wagon can be countered with AoE dispel: destroyers, riflepriests / spirit walkers + raiders, easily accessible and cheaper unit comps, which need to use up less food limit to nigh completely counter it. Glaive thrower effectiveness from a pure siege point of view is comparable to meat wagon, but my point is that night elves also have a wall of faster and much more durable mountain giants, and chimaeras with insane siege range that outranges the orc tower!

Frost wyrms are good, but their damage is only insane vs heavy armor. However vs structures, its mediocre at best. Yes they can freeze towers, but their pitiful range means that, unlike chimaera, they must get close to hit it. And once they get close, they will get blown up by everything else that is near that tower. Remember that dragon hawks, whose shackles are a hard counter to wyrms, also have disable tower attack ability, its from a real far away range, even further than chimaera (!), and its AoE (!!!). If anything is almost like a cheat, its that. And wyrms are not dealing over 100 damage on each attack to fortified structures, its less than that, and definitely less than chimaeras do, also wyrms are suitable for way less unit comps than destroyers, and both of wyrms’ attacks are already in use, so reworking one of the wyrms’ attacks into a siege would disrupt the ways how wyrms are currently used, while destroyers don’t have that problem, as they have a spare attack that currently is not in any use whatsoever.
And about secondary attack type not being siege - let me be clear here please - the secondary attack is not to attack units. The allowed targets would be structures alone. Similar how Chimaeras can’t attack dryads, although they have siege damage - the valid targets for chimaera’s secondary attack of siege damage type are only structures. Applying the same to destroyers would have basically no impact whatsoever on unit vs unit combat. Its only when they start attacking structures, they would deal adequate amount of damage, instead of minuscule one.

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In theory (on paper only) we agree that FW does not have siege attack, but In real game If I had to choose between 7 Chims or 7 Frosts or 15 hawks, I would go Frosts.
They just awesome!

This is not a good reasoning. Like this I can say that I have 3 protectors but beyond them I got 50 archers + wells.

Again I saw many games but this blown up thing happend to Chims, because Frost W. dies much more harder, they can withstand even copters or hypos.
I saw lot of copters + hypos die due to few frosts + DK coil + Heal Statue = Keep them too strong!!!

I find that lately: Hypos with short ranged claw attack, are WEAK (I am talking about unmounted hypos) , they just cannot get near frosts , also Gargs or Copters counter Hypos easily. Of course on paper they have lot of damage with claws but in reality is hard to get near Frost Wyrms.

A good army looks like: DK (coil+aura) + few fiends (for web) + lot of Frost + 1-2 Statues on heal. Now counter that!

Back to the subject, Wagoon with his Necro ability is very good siege stuff compared to others (just mortar is better because is more mobile + can be healed) glaive and demolisher - worst ones.
Plus I include Frost Wyrms in same siege category, sometimes raw numbers in Excel are misleading => so check more real Games on internet!
Also banshee, can possess even enemy chims or mortars - if you want.

Every patch since 2 years made UD stronger and stronger, I am against making UD stronger - they even fixed Gargs prioritize - just because some pro players Garg- maniacs (like WTii) wanted that stuff additionally to the original game.

The only exception on making UD better is that: I think UD Nerubian tower range is too short.

Ud should be about frost - slow enemy, raise skel. , disease, possess enemy units, ghoul rush, Garg harass. But please no more siege or other features for them.

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Yo, when was the last time you were playing vs a real player and not vs an AI? As far as I recall, in any half decently skilled match ups, undead just doesn’t survive until wyrms. The game outcome is decided before he can make them. And if UD has won using wyrms, he almost certainly would have won with using anything available before them. I’ve seen a ton of pro games since 2005, and I can count by hand when undead was using frost wyrms and won. Frost wyrms are such a niche unit that is used so incomparably less than you try to make them out to be, are very hard to get compared to destroyers, especially en-masse, and are really not that great overall when you factor in the amount of risk you need to take while trying to make them. It’s so funny because it was a few times I’ve personally seen wyrm mongers like you trying to mass frosties, only to get their base pulverized by a decked T2 orcs and hums using a good amount of casters in their unit mix. It was ultra-cringe, because if undead went destroyers, he’d probably win, but his obsession with wyrms have costed him the game.

Anyway, I don’t really have time to get into the whole wyrms debate as this is technically off topic, but from what I’ve seen over many years, destroyers are just superior to wyrms in every possible way you look at. Unless someone just brute forces heavy melee units without any caster backup, which I have never seen happening, destroyers just destroy wyrms, and quite literally too, pardon my pun. Wyrms is a fun unit that you can toy around with in big casual games, but in any tourney-like 1v1 or 2v2 games, wyrms are just non-existent, and your investment into them is misleading for the new players, who may have no idea that in 9 out of 10 competitive 1v1 fast paced bloodbaths with non-stop harass and early siege, they will simply never get a chance to get even close to making one.

2 Likes
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Chimaeras will not die while sieging enemy base though, because their 850 siege range against structures will prevent anything lethal coming near them. And if it does come near them, the rest of your night elf army will/should chomp it, and chimaeras will continue sieging unaffected. Wyrms, on the other hand, have to come close to siege enemy base, and if enemy has towers and their army there, your wyrms will splatter much faster than chimaeras would.

Copters counter anything aerial except batriders easily; it is the ultimate air-to-air unit. I’m not sure what match ups are you watching, but same food limit of copters absolutely decimate same food limit of wyrms. And hyppos 1 on 1 beats gargs any day, the disadvantage of hyppos is that it can’t attack land units, while gargs can, but purely in the air combat, hyppos absolutely counter gargs, it’s how it always been.

DK (coil+aura) + few fiends (for web) + lot of Frost + 1-2 Statues on heal get countered by dragonhawks + knights, raiders + berserkers/bats, archer + hyppo/talon. It’s not a universally unbeatable unit comp. Plenty of stuff hard counters it. And it will be available quicker and cheaper.

Frost wyrms are not siege, my guy. Their damage vs structures are just inferior. Even batrider deals more damage per shot to a building than a frost wyrm!
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VgnnpyQfd0
And from a siege perspective, chimaera smokes wyrm any day, there is just no contest there.

Banshee are simply not going to get to mortar teams to possess them, do you realise the amount of distance they must cover to get to them? They will get torn apart by everything enemy has en-route to mortars, but even if they do make it, it’s highly likely you’d already won, and your opponent left. And possession is generally reserved for 4+ food limit enemy units on the front lines, not for those deep at the back. It’s just not realistic to pull off possessing mortars. The only somewhat possible option is to possess raiders, but it’s also hard to pull off because ensnare interrupts the possession. And night elves have no viable possession targets with siege damage; you cannot possess chimaeras because they are an air unit… lol. All these are just band aid solutions that do not make up for the proper siege unit.

I’d even take adding a secondary siege attack for a nerubian tower, which would make a weird skull + nerubian tower rush strat possible, but nerubian tower doesn’t need an extra range. It currently has adequate one, same as spirit tower. Oh and talking about siege towers, I almost forgot that humans actually have 4 types of siege units, the fourth is cannon tower, that does not require a special ground of blight to construct, and builds quicker than a nerubian one. Like really, one race has 4 siege damage units, another race has 1. And given that at a high level this game is about killing enemy buildings, as that’s the victory condition, undead to me is severely deprived of it. If human makes mass siege engines and rushes to your base, and you rush to his base with wyrms, he will win 10 times out of 10. So UD should be about having a fair chance of winning, just like all the other factions, and the additional siege unit is a critically missing link to make that happen.

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Actually what do you play? 1x1 Tournaments only? Than sure discussion changes - you cannot wait to mass Wyrms because like you said you will be eaten by Grunts, but most of the community play 4x4 games.

BTW, you posted this in Competitive Multiplayer - this is 4x4; 3x3; 2x2 and not 1x1 in my understanding, no multi player - no team - in 1x1 and tournaments are just 2 competitors without “multi” word.

yes on the paper not. But in 4x4 games if one UD manage to get Wyrms, and he has decent allies, he win by sieging enemy bases. By decent allies I mean someone doing either HH or some rifles, 3-4 knights or even grunts, few casters.

I did not invent this “Strategy” but is a common thing in 4x4 to feed UD for Frost Wyrms, because this is sure win! Similar nobody choose to feed human or orc, maybe in few games feed NE, but chims alone cannot attack air so … if UD in team, Wyrms are the good choice.

And to be on subject: I do not think that UD has bad siege capabilities - I consider Wyrms also siege but if NOT that still have very good wagoons!

Maybe SIEGE topic is a weaker UD point (having just 1x siege attack unit) but UD is strong in other areas (eg. Anti Air: Wyrms, Gargs, Destroyers, even Fiends - almost every unit target air, now I can ask: which race has so many AA units?) and unique things: necro wagoon raise dead (army from virtually nothing), banshee = possession of enemy units, strong heal with statues + aura, strong damage: lich nova.

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Ah, I think we’ve finally figured out the stumbling block there. I was going from a presumption of a 1v1 or max 2v2. I’m just aware that an overwhelming majority of tourneys with meaningful prize pools almost never go above 2v2.

https ://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Team_Tournaments

From what I’m seeing in the link, matches of 3v3 and above are virtually absent from high level tourneys, and those rare few that are present, simply fail to generate a hype the smaller, but higher quality games like 1v1 or 2v2 do. So I was under the impression the desired ideal of the competitive multiplayer forum is basically that; a small, highly skilled skirmishes at low-medium upkeep, showcasing wonders of micro, macro and all the creativity in between.

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Exactly, so if you post in General or better PTR topic for further improvement, is something different.

I still disagree there to make UD more strong, in my view UD is just too strong. But is just my view/opinion, maybe I just cannot counter them with my NE play…

Personally, I am really conservative (old school), I wish to have also a Vanilla War3 like it was after the launch of Frozen Throne + maybe first few patches, so some of old players could game 4x4 on that old 2003 level.

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nah, only newbs play 4x4

real gosus play 6x6 or 12x12

Goodness gracious

QFT FGS

Imo it’s you who should kindly excuse yourself into general channel, with the likeminded casual bottom dwellers. I can confidently tell you’ve never held any prize money in your hands. But we both know you ain’t gonna go, because most of those, who cared about this game, have left long ago. It doesn’t get any clearer, that when the likes of you get to spit nonsense freely without sternly being put into their place, this game is beyond redemption.

Ironic, isn’t it? How the likes of you get to speak as if you know something about real competition that this once glorious game had. Allow me to disclose, that I also am an old school, and I can confidently say, that at the prime of this game, the likes of you would be gently dismissed by the carrot tops like moon and grubby, but the majority of those who really strove to make it big, would just make you a laughing stock for even suggesting so absurd as anything bigger than 2x2 even mattered at all at a competitive level. It never did. You cannot possibly be unaware of this, if you’ve really been around for so long! It were only the lowlife casuals who seriously invested into 4x4 derpfest, and the rare few experiments by the serious dedicated players who attempted to make even 3x3 work, even at a local tourney level, have failed, with no exceptions. But I’d think you would know that too!

Long story short, noone gives a damn how long you’ve been around. It’s what you have to show for it that matters. There are plenty of really young MOBA gamers who got really good at controlling a single hero, and have won more money than you have probably had in total since your first 4v4 game back at 2003 lawl. Cautiously assuming you have at least a basic sense of such concepts as ‘revenue generation’ and ‘esports popularity index’, you’d know, that top 10 esports games worldwide are not even, in warcraft terms, 1x1! It’s literally controlling a single unit, and getting really good at it. The further you move away from it, the further you move away from a truly competitive spirit and the cha-ching accompanying it! So keep playing 4x4 as much as you like, just don’t get too complacent, thinking that truly everyone has left, and you’re immune from reality checks. The remaining few just don’t care anymore, but they’re still around, have no doubt about that, “conservative”.

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Thinking about this, I think the best unit to put Siege on would be Banshee per your suggestion. There are a few reasons why this makes sense.

  1. Sound can bust things up, and Banshees scream. Makes sense from some kind of “scientific” perspective.

  2. I’m thinking of something like the Walls of Jericho - touring around the city 7 times or whatever and blowing the trumpets before the walls fall. Latest archaeology suggests the walls were down 700 years before the record says it happened, but there’s a Mythological aspect to the point here of using sound and vibrations to take down walls.

  3. It would encourage more use of Banshees. After playing numerous games on multiplayer, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single Undead player train a Banshee. One more reason couldn’t hurt.

So I like it.
-G

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Yess
Banshee is such an underrated unit. People just don’t realise how amazingly effective the curse is over time. And its autocast. My favorite caster hands down. But most people just opt out of using the poor disturbed souls for good… Give them incentive to use little sindels more)

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Ok, I :cat: agree with that: when banshee screams :scream: :loudspeaker: - let an earthquake :confounded: damage buildings :derelict_house: :houses: :derelict_house: + freeze all enemy units :cold_face: in the area!

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https ://media.tenor.com/JExVRx3M4zgAAAAC/baby-falling-over-laugh.gif

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I think all siege vehicles need buff. They are all too underpowered.

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Abos are the weakest T3 units, so they need to do like Siege damage against buildings and mechanical units.
It’s that simple.