Okay but that really is nothing in WarCraft.
In DOTA you can cast sleep on friendly to prevent dmg during that frame…
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its pretty frustrating having to attack your own unit as it is, not only are you self inflicting damage, you have to stop attacking the enemy, its sort of like taunt but even more effective
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Are we talking about DOTA here or WC3?
No sleep only works on enemies. Yh but when u think about it sleep is bad spell rn.
One autoattacks on sleeping tauren? -0.9% hp?
Having a threshold would be better because the ability would become a disable then.
i cant respond to such poor writing
Basically auto attacking your own unit is not negative in anyway.
Its not like they are even going to lose 1% hp.
While Dreadlord wastes mana.
The point of this thread is that other races have guarenteed stun/disables that secure kills through surrounds.
Undead doesnt and thats why having Sleep become a disable is better rather than a gimmick
If there is a threshold then the undead units can surround because you need to deal dmg amount to wake which takes time.
thats exactly what sleep is for, if sleep also did damage (or required more damage % before being woken up) it would be overpowered, especially when combined with swarm
a better way to improve undead would be to reduce the HP regen aura for DK and give standard units a slight HP regen
or give undead goldmines an upgrade that gives acolytes antimagic shell (only while mining gold)
I don’t see why it’s any different with Keeper and Roots though. Roots even does damage, so is it not considered OP?
The difference only comes from ghouls being more swarmy than hunts, otherwise the effect is generally the same. The only difference is sleep is easier to break, making ghoul surround an unreliable tactic vs pro play.
Horde can also swarm with TC/Grunt/Raider combo which is very strong and viable. Swarming is definitely a tactic, and it’s something that’s easily countered with strong AoE too. The problem with Sleep as a spell is that on pro level, it’s very easy to break and disrupt. It honestly makes ghoul swarm tactic require more work than it should.
The threshold shouldn’t be so powerful in T1, that’s why I suggested 10hp, enough for a Hero to wake but not so easy that 1 archer shot will wake up a unit. By level 3 Sleep, 50 HP threshold makes it a fair disable. On the level of Entangling Roots or Ensnare.
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most people have been complaining about keeper ever since patch 1.30, but keeper doesnt have a separate ranged spell like swarm to double it up with
i agree that if it was only 10hp at level 3 it wouldnt make much of a difference, because most people will choose swarm level 3 before sleep level 3, so i really dont see how this would help in anyway compared to the other ideas i suggested
Dl isnt weak, DK is overpowered
I don’t understand what you mean by it being overpowered especially with swarm.
We are talking about Sleep having a damage threshold to wake up units. Sleep remains a CC spell that does 0 damage to units. If you want to reliably wake up a unit, it would require more damage to wake it up, but that is simply the ‘poor mans’ way of breaking the CC.
It’s not OP in any way even when combined with Swarm, because DL doesn’t go both Swarm and Sleep combo. That’s a huge mana sink, and the DPS gained out of that supposed combo is fairly mediocre. The idea is being able to single out units that are running away and more reliably swarm them for a guaranteed kill on retreating enemy; whereas right now good micro > Sleep. DL having Carrion Swarm is not really a factor here, it’s a mana-heavy AoE spell that isn’t really designed for picking off units.
Reduce DK regen aura and standard healing boost is good too, but doesn’t really change how DL and Ghoul strats work, we’re just shifting stats around and nerfing the DK a bit. DK is still the most powerful because of movement speed, because of reliable heal, because of reliable tactics. DL is a lot more hit-and-miss with reliable strategy. Ghouls with +1hp/s isn’t really going to fix that.
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I’ll admit you type better than Eternal and you have more knowledge of the game, but you should try asking for peoples opinions on other forums/reddit/discord and see what they say, cause this forum doesnt have enough high skilled players to get a large pool of opinions and discussions going for this idea.
I still think people would choose level 3 swarm over sleep, even if your idea was incorporated, unless you made it a higher damage % than just 10hp (which would be overpowered)
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lmao why u talkin bout my Inglesh
It purfekt mon
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Dreadlord
- Add a secondary effect to Vampiric Aura (i.e attack speed)
- Reduce Mana cost of Carrion Swarm
- Tinker with sleep (but not break it)
However, they really need to look at Ghouls and Abominations and how they interact over the course of a game to make a viable Undead melee army. DK/Lich/Fiends and Destros largely exist in their own bubble. There are a bunch of undead units that are gravely under utilized and begging for some synergy to provide an alternative build - Blizzard could honestly buff, Ghouls, Abominations, Dreadlord, Crpytlord and it would have very little impact on the hit-and-run play-style of DK/Lich/Fiend.
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I wouldn’t fiddle with sleep.
Warcraft is at it’s best when things are kept simple.
Sleep is one of those spells where if you give it a little nudge boost it will get really overpowered and annoying to deal with.
We had the same thing with Entangling roots, don’t need to repeat the mistake.
It’s honestly it’s better left alone.
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Yh but root was dumb broken.
The sleep suggestion isnt. Come on this is complex? Putting a dmg threshold to wake units up?
Literally is the same as ADDING a hit count to wake units up like:
level 1 - 2 hits to wake
Level 2 -4
Level 3 - 6 hits to wake etc.
That could be an alternative. It wouldnt be broken.
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Kind-of aggree…I would much rather Vampiric Aura get a buff so its competitive with Unholy Aura and Carrion Swarm get a mana cost reduction. Sleep is actually very useful when creeping so that has to be taken into account.
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It might work at high level, but most players aren’t high level. The game has to be fun to play and sleep is just one of those spells that aren’t fun to play against. At lower levels of play it’s incredibly frustrating to play against. So you shouldn’t buff it.
Fun is more important than balance.
Players are easy to forgive broken mechanics as long as they are enjoyable.
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People are forgetting that sleep has a very long duration on normal units unless interrupted. Sure attacking ones own units to wake them up is easy, but that assumes you have the resources to.
For example say the enemy has been forced to retreat. You can sleep one of the retreating normal units and the enemy will either have to stop retreating to attack it and wake it up, a process take takes 2-3 seconds due to turn and reaction speed. This means the enemy either has to sacrifice the asleep unit as the enemy will kill it later, or they risk another unit to try and save it.
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A intriguing statement. StarCraft 2 designed its melee balance for competitive players so it ended up being not popular with average players. Heroes of The Storm goes the other way and is currently the more enjoyed game of the two.
Warcraft 3 has aspects of them both, though. It is also the one of the first-generation esports games. So where would that place Reforged on the spectrum of balance philosophy?
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Isn’t it also an argument that at low levels of play, players aren’t gonna be successfully microing to wake up sleeping units and escape sleep surround?
I mean we can make a case to say lower levels of play would be affected because Sleep is already so powerful, but consider that the micro required to just keep a unit awake is already beyond the skill level of players who are having trouble facing a DL with Sleep, even without a damage threshold.
I also don’t buy the argument that ‘Entangling Roots is already problematic, let’s not repeat the mistake’. The Keeper’s roots will never change, and it’s in the game, and it’s here to stay. It’s a viable strategy to use, and is effective. And a damage threshold to Sleep makes higher ranks act more like a disable as it should be.
The time duration of sleep is inconsequential by the time you hit late game. You rank up to lvl 3 for the stupid-low mana cost and the super-short cooldown. At high level of play, lasting longer doesn’t really mean much. At lower level of play, it seems overpowered, but arguably anything extreme can seem overpowered at lower level of play. We had a person complain here about mass Gyros vs NE.
While the suggestion I made at the time is not intended to improve Dreadlord gameplay to the level of DK, I simply amused the idea to improve where I see improvement can be made. If there is a con that I’ve missed, I’m open to hearing it. But the arguments I’ve seen so far don’t really convince me that it’s something that we should ‘keep for the sake of not breaking other styles/levels of play’.
I’ll admit that a low Sleep cooldown can put a lot of pressure on the other player for having to micro to keep units awake, but at the same time I think that in those situations that a player must prepare and counter a Dreadlord lest they fall into a CC trap; much like playing against a mass Druid of the Talon strategy doesn’t just involve you reacting to every cyclone, it involves you using a proper counter-strat.
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I think wc3 has aspects of both only because of the custom community. which basically means people did it themselves xD