" I think Sleep should have a damage threshold to break that increases per level. Something like lvl 1 have to do 20 pts of damage, level 2 do 40 pts, lvl 3 have to do 60 pts. That way it’s not as easy as 1 ranged hit to break the effect, and you need to use Dispels for reliable dispel."
Right now, MK Stun, Polymorph and Ensnare/Stomp and Taunt better effects. While undead only has frost nova for disable and CL stun (hahahhahahahah like we all “works”!)
Triceron this needed to be a post so I did it 4 u.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t sleep have a few frames where it can’t initially be interrupted ?
R u serious are we talking about frames lol.
No there is one problem with sleep.
Its weak but should be strong let me explain.
High mana cost (keep in mind)
Now why is sleep weak?
Every race has an ability to guarentee 1 esrly game kill except undead.
(Not talking death coil and offensive abilites hear me out)
KOTG has entangling roots, MK has storm bolt and TC or SH have hex or war stomp. ALL THESE LEAD TO ALMOST GUARENTEE SURRONDS.
Undead got nothing impale 2 clunky for surronds. And he is not picked first
In higher skills game (not pro) lvl any newb knows to right click unit with ranged attack.
So the ability is useless really in comparison and is one of the reasons we see alot of DK Lich.
and not CL or DL once kn awhile.
Good for creeping but the other races can also at high skill do the same with their abilities
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Afaik, you are right. Sleep makes the target unit invulnerable for 1 sec. That’s how Bane in Dota2 works, too.
Okay but that really is nothing in WarCraft.
In DOTA you can cast sleep on friendly to prevent dmg during that frame…
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its pretty frustrating having to attack your own unit as it is, not only are you self inflicting damage, you have to stop attacking the enemy, its sort of like taunt but even more effective
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Are we talking about DOTA here or WC3?
No sleep only works on enemies. Yh but when u think about it sleep is bad spell rn.
One autoattacks on sleeping tauren? -0.9% hp?
Having a threshold would be better because the ability would become a disable then.
i cant respond to such poor writing
Basically auto attacking your own unit is not negative in anyway.
Its not like they are even going to lose 1% hp.
While Dreadlord wastes mana.
The point of this thread is that other races have guarenteed stun/disables that secure kills through surrounds.
Undead doesnt and thats why having Sleep become a disable is better rather than a gimmick
If there is a threshold then the undead units can surround because you need to deal dmg amount to wake which takes time.
thats exactly what sleep is for, if sleep also did damage (or required more damage % before being woken up) it would be overpowered, especially when combined with swarm
a better way to improve undead would be to reduce the HP regen aura for DK and give standard units a slight HP regen
or give undead goldmines an upgrade that gives acolytes antimagic shell (only while mining gold)
I don’t see why it’s any different with Keeper and Roots though. Roots even does damage, so is it not considered OP?
The difference only comes from ghouls being more swarmy than hunts, otherwise the effect is generally the same. The only difference is sleep is easier to break, making ghoul surround an unreliable tactic vs pro play.
Horde can also swarm with TC/Grunt/Raider combo which is very strong and viable. Swarming is definitely a tactic, and it’s something that’s easily countered with strong AoE too. The problem with Sleep as a spell is that on pro level, it’s very easy to break and disrupt. It honestly makes ghoul swarm tactic require more work than it should.
The threshold shouldn’t be so powerful in T1, that’s why I suggested 10hp, enough for a Hero to wake but not so easy that 1 archer shot will wake up a unit. By level 3 Sleep, 50 HP threshold makes it a fair disable. On the level of Entangling Roots or Ensnare.
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most people have been complaining about keeper ever since patch 1.30, but keeper doesnt have a separate ranged spell like swarm to double it up with
i agree that if it was only 10hp at level 3 it wouldnt make much of a difference, because most people will choose swarm level 3 before sleep level 3, so i really dont see how this would help in anyway compared to the other ideas i suggested
Dl isnt weak, DK is overpowered
I don’t understand what you mean by it being overpowered especially with swarm.
We are talking about Sleep having a damage threshold to wake up units. Sleep remains a CC spell that does 0 damage to units. If you want to reliably wake up a unit, it would require more damage to wake it up, but that is simply the ‘poor mans’ way of breaking the CC.
It’s not OP in any way even when combined with Swarm, because DL doesn’t go both Swarm and Sleep combo. That’s a huge mana sink, and the DPS gained out of that supposed combo is fairly mediocre. The idea is being able to single out units that are running away and more reliably swarm them for a guaranteed kill on retreating enemy; whereas right now good micro > Sleep. DL having Carrion Swarm is not really a factor here, it’s a mana-heavy AoE spell that isn’t really designed for picking off units.
Reduce DK regen aura and standard healing boost is good too, but doesn’t really change how DL and Ghoul strats work, we’re just shifting stats around and nerfing the DK a bit. DK is still the most powerful because of movement speed, because of reliable heal, because of reliable tactics. DL is a lot more hit-and-miss with reliable strategy. Ghouls with +1hp/s isn’t really going to fix that.
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I’ll admit you type better than Eternal and you have more knowledge of the game, but you should try asking for peoples opinions on other forums/reddit/discord and see what they say, cause this forum doesnt have enough high skilled players to get a large pool of opinions and discussions going for this idea.
I still think people would choose level 3 swarm over sleep, even if your idea was incorporated, unless you made it a higher damage % than just 10hp (which would be overpowered)
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lmao why u talkin bout my Inglesh
It purfekt mon
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Dreadlord
- Add a secondary effect to Vampiric Aura (i.e attack speed)
- Reduce Mana cost of Carrion Swarm
- Tinker with sleep (but not break it)
However, they really need to look at Ghouls and Abominations and how they interact over the course of a game to make a viable Undead melee army. DK/Lich/Fiends and Destros largely exist in their own bubble. There are a bunch of undead units that are gravely under utilized and begging for some synergy to provide an alternative build - Blizzard could honestly buff, Ghouls, Abominations, Dreadlord, Crpytlord and it would have very little impact on the hit-and-run play-style of DK/Lich/Fiend.
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I wouldn’t fiddle with sleep.
Warcraft is at it’s best when things are kept simple.
Sleep is one of those spells where if you give it a little nudge boost it will get really overpowered and annoying to deal with.
We had the same thing with Entangling roots, don’t need to repeat the mistake.
It’s honestly it’s better left alone.
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Yh but root was dumb broken.
The sleep suggestion isnt. Come on this is complex? Putting a dmg threshold to wake units up?
Literally is the same as ADDING a hit count to wake units up like:
level 1 - 2 hits to wake
Level 2 -4
Level 3 - 6 hits to wake etc.
That could be an alternative. It wouldnt be broken.
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Kind-of aggree…I would much rather Vampiric Aura get a buff so its competitive with Unholy Aura and Carrion Swarm get a mana cost reduction. Sleep is actually very useful when creeping so that has to be taken into account.
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It might work at high level, but most players aren’t high level. The game has to be fun to play and sleep is just one of those spells that aren’t fun to play against. At lower levels of play it’s incredibly frustrating to play against. So you shouldn’t buff it.
Fun is more important than balance.
Players are easy to forgive broken mechanics as long as they are enjoyable.
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