no counter in 4s if team masses air and they have 1 hu who goes tanks its basically a auto win cya
6 Likes
Tanks need a redesign or they need nerfs. They are a terribly designed unit to begin with. Very useless against Orc because of raiders, but obnoxious to play against for both NE and UD since they do not use siege damage in their armies most of the time.
They are a boring unit to play and a terrible unit to interact with. All HU has to do is right click them onto buildings. They can even use staff on them which will heal the tanks to full hitpoints, even though tanks are a mechanical unit! Their armor type should be changed to heavy armor. Then, maybe blizzard should introduce an upgrade which upgrades their armor type to fortified armor. Make it cost 200 lumber and 150 gold. This way, HU will have to decide whether the player wants to commit to tanks or not.
Right now, all HU has to do is wait till it has 3 tanks, then right click UD main base and Acolytes will not be able to mine gold, spend tons of ressources on repair and UD will have to pull the entire army back. And this will not even guarantee that buildings don’t get destroyed because the usual UD army has low damage against fortified armor. And then HU can simply use staff on low hp tanks and repeat till every UD building is gone.
3 Likes
i like the siege units, i think theyre fun. melee units, and magic dmg units counter them, and flyers. but dont bm just putting ideas out there.
Magic doesn’t do well vs them. They have fortified armor.
Flying - eh not the best option. They do get a splash anti air attack that is somewhat effective vs some air units.
I guess bat riders could work since they get a siege attack.
The best way to deal with them is to surround them with melee or just use siege units. But they usually don’t come out til a human has an established economy.
I’m referring to 1v1 though - I know there are several cheese strats used in team and ffa games off one base that can be effective.
EDIT: I re read the post and see you were specifically referring to 4s. Yeah. There’s gonna be lots of cheesey things that happen in 4s that would never work in a solo match lol.
Lcky7 clearly trolling with false information. Someone delete his post.
Just watch the recent game of TH000 vs Happy in CC masters cup.
http s ://www.twitch.tv/videos/525274020 Tanks roll in around 2:58 hour mark.
Literally the most braindead way to play Human. Mass masonry upgrades, keep repair buildings with peasants. Tanks are the most toxic unit in the game, all HU has to do is mass them and right click buildings. Meat wagons have awful stats. Only 380 hitpoints, are way too slow, do not even benefit from armor upgrades like Tanks do and cannot get healed by death coil. They are not worth building because of how easy it is to kill them, as you can see in this game. All enemy needs is AM, Blizzard or Water elementals and chase them down.
Compare these two units. Its insane how overpowered Tanks are for their cost!
Meat Wagon: 230 gold, 50 lumber, 4 supply
380 health, 2 armor which does not benefit from any upgrades, heavy armor.
80 average damage
Tank: 195 gold, 60 lumber, 4 supply
700 hitpoints! SEVEN HUNDRED with fortified armor!
50 average damage
This unit has way too much HP and should never have fortified armor in the first place. Its even more insane how HU can heal it with staff even though its mechanical - for free!
1 Like
You’re comparing apples and oranges. Meat Wagons have more utility than Steam Tanks because they can carry around corpses for the Undead to use for various spells and abilities. Meat Wagons also can attack ground units while Steam Tanks cannot. Steam Tanks are also short-ranged and must endanger themselves in order to attack your enemy’s base, while Meat Wagons have long range.
Also, despite the replay you provided, if your opponent manages to build up a large number of Steam Tanks and rolled over your base with them, odds are you messed up and didn’t stop them from getting that far, or you didn’t punish them in some way. A Steam Tank build like that would be vulnerable to worker harassment, or you could make your own siege units (i.e. Meat Wagons) to pummel the enemy’s static defenses from range. Or, if your opponent is turtling really hard, try seizing map control instead. If you can take over several gold mines, you’ll have way more resources than the player who turtles.
As Undead, one thing you could try against the Steam Tanks is defending your buildings with units. Ghouls, Skeletons, and other melee units would prevent the Steam Tanks from reaching your buildings because of too much unit collision. Also, Meat Wagons deal bonus damage to Steam Tanks since they have Fortified armor, so use that to your advantage.
Everything has a counter; you just need to get creative.
1 Like
No one uses exhume corpses, its totally useless as long as Necromancers remain a terrible unit. Hopefully blizzard will give them a proper rework in the future, but thats a point for another thread entirely.
Human have the strongest siege units in the game by far, to deal with tanks you need to move your entire army over as UD or NE and all HU has to do is run in with Hero, use staff off sanctuary and heal his mechanical units for free while tanks blow up one building after another.
Even if you surround tanks they take forever to kill, while you spend tons of ressources on repair, cannot mine in the meantime and HU just teleports his tanks out.
1 Like
Exhume corpses probably shouldn’t require research. That said, I did just win a 3v3 against a guy massing tanks. I lost my whole base, but I had an 80 supply army and they had 1 guy making tanks… They are totally obnoxious, but so are batriders, invis mortars, raiders, and chimaeras. Increasing the cost/supply on such a cheesy unit seems just though.
1 Like
Update: Just watch Huya Super League Infi vs Happy. Infi constantly abuses tank play. 2 Tanks give such an insane strategical advantage for little investment. Their increased supply cost doesn’t help. The need big nerf in HP, no longer fortified armor and mechanical units must not be able to get staffed via staff of sanctuary from Human and healed.
Just like Neo and Remo say: “Its dirty, it looks disgusting, but its so effective.”
Tanks have no counter. Meat wagons suck, they are the worst siege unit in the game. They even damage UD’s own buildings when they attack tanks, just watch the video and see. Tanks should not be able to get transported by Zeppelin.
3-0 by abusing Tanks. This isn’t balance, this is simply disgusting to watch and play. To see a champion of the highest caliber get utterly destroyed 3 times in a row by one single unit. There were not even any fun interactions between units and heroes. Just tanks + AM staffing around, zeppelin abusing dropped tanks and focus buildings.
It is just like I told you. You have proof right here blizzard. Go make changes or this terrible playstyle will continue to destroy the game.
3 Likes
If I’m being fairly honest a nerf by like 75 hp would be big enough to balance it.
Strong disagree. That units needs a complete redesign. Its a failure and produces boring and non-interactive games. Just watch the 3-0 of Infi vs Happy. The game was going completely normal until tanks came into play. Its something to see one player outplay the other with smart map movement, for example Orc with speedscroll + raiders. Counters like Sleep and Coil Nova, or Destroyer dispel vs Speed Scroll exists.
But then you look at tanks. Hu makes several of them, right clicks into UD base and UD needs to pull his entire army back and still takes forever to kill them, or they just get staffed and healed. Its disgusting.
1 Like
Wait how are you disagreeing when I’m asking for a nerf??
Because 75 HP makes almost not difference. Just watch those games and see. Whats needed is a huge change, taking away reinforced armor and give them heavy armor instead.
There are only 2 options: Nerf this unit to terrible stats so it becomes never used again or extremely niche.
Or completely redesign this unit and give it a new role.
The current role of right click and gain insane tempo advantage, or mass tanks and win is terrible. Both work on the highest level of play. There is no counter available because UD has terrible melee and siege damage units that are not worth investing a lot into. Even your siege damage just kills your own buildings with splash damage.
Just look at it. This unit is 1 supply cost more than before, which is not that big of an investment and its still ridicolous.
1 Like
I feel like tier 3 air like gyrphons are already strong. Unless you buff tier 3 melee you cant really justify buffing air again in a way.
What does tier 3 air have to do with tanks?
Gryphons are alright units. Most tier 3 units are easily countered by whats already on the field, thats their biggest issue. Taurens, Frost Wyrms, Gryphons, Chimeras have this issue.
Gryphons have 450 range, good hp and are flying, they are worth using but niche. Chimeras are useful when massed, but need a big bank to be useful and produce multiple at once. The long range attack puts a ton of preassure on the opponent. Tauren get countered too easily, though Resurrect exists and can gain immense value in prolonged macro games.
Forst Wyrms are a joke. They have only 300 range, and their slow attack got nerfed, cost way much time and ressources. Sacrificial Pit requirement is nonsense. They should have slightly downscaled stats, 450 range like Gryphons, massively downscaled train time, ressources and supply cost. The frost breath upgrade is useless, it needs to be replaced by something similar to Chimeras. Or just introduce a straightup anti-Tank counter: Freezes Mechanical units, heavily slowing down movement speed and attack rate.
Blizzard already introduced anti-UD orb. Nothing wrong with introducing anti-HU Frost Wyrm upgrade since UD has no way to deal with them currently. Frost Wyrms must have a place in this game, they could be used against Knights for example. But too high investments and ridicolous buffs to counters like Flying Machines prevent this in the first place.
1 Like
INFI won vs Happy with tanks not a random guy. Afterwards i joined Tod’s stream, he watched the game and decided to replicate what infi did. Guess what ? got beaten by a 60% Netease noname undead destroying his base, giving him lots of xp and eventually losing to his army. I still think we need more data to judge them or maybe make them higher lvl to award more xp as a simple start. I disagree with the redesign, it’s a unique siege unit human has and i found it smart how infi used them (not massing them).
Im gonna be honest.
Undead is the worst balanced race right now.
Yes even though clap and stomp are overpowered rn that doesn’t hide the majority of flaws the race has.
We can only wait for new balance
1 Like
imo increase gold cost by 10 and level from 3 to 4.
The bigger problem is haunted gold mine, though. WAY too costly to rebuild. Especially for a race that has such useless workers. Reduce the gold cost on it by a lot, at least. Make Haunted Gold Mine only summonable on blight if you want to balance out the cost of expansions (because they’d require Necropolis/Sacrificial Skull). It’s not like Undead can repair stuff with their lumber workers like all the other races.
1 Like
Tanks as everything may seem imba when u dont know how to counter it.
First do not let human get to tank build, you can rush, hero rush or creep rush and expo rush or counter expo.
NE : Panda + bears and crows do the trick, spells from crows is important
ORC : Tauren with stomp upgrade, bats or hh for gryphons
UND : Abbos, wagons, necro
Base built is also important, dont waste money on towers better do expos.
Map control is essential against human players, if they fast expo do not commit to killing it and stale the exp gains for both of u. Go make ur own expo without towers and creep and dont let them creep. They need expo to get tanks and if they do fast expo they are usually week at leaving the base.
Tanks are sad i dont like em, frustrating but i got used to them and see no point in changing anything. From the changes u propose i can only see them beeing useless
1 Like
As a Human player, all races have a counter to tanks. One advantage for successful tank play, is Human expecting enemy to make the anti tank units. If not, risk losing.
When the enemy are forced to make a particular unit to counter the tanks, we get to compete on a unit side scale. Human right now is struggling. Tanks are generally not effective in 1v1 or team games as they take too long to make. They only attack buildings or air and leaves others to fight alone when tanks do not apply. Tanks are not in need of nurf buddy.