Suggestion: Undead Melee build

General Discussion
1

Its pretty well established that the tried and true formula of DK/Lich/Fiends + friends is a fun and viable way to play Undead. In-fact its pretty much the only way to play competitively…

My thoughts are that there is some untapped potential within the melee units of Undead that could be enhanced to provided an alternative build.

Build

Dreadlord/Ghouls/Abominations + summons

The concept is to create a melee focused Undead army that makes greater use of Ghouls and Abominations without interfering with the beloved DK/Lich/Fiends playstyle. The Dreadlord acts similar to a Vampire Lord from other games whereby he provides aura to buff and sustain the army.

Core upgrades

Marching Dead (replaces Ghoul Frenzy)
Ghouls, Abominations, Skeletons and Beetles gain increased movement speed (alternative to Unholy Aura)
Requires: Slaughterhouse

Disease Cloud (upgrade addition)
Ghouls, Skeletons and Beetles attack faster when hitting units infected with Disease Cloud (synergy with Vampiric Aura).

Unholy Evolution
Ghouls are transformed into the ultimate predators and gain:

  • Increased HP
  • Leap towards their target
  • Deal increased damage the lower their HP gets (synergy with Vampiric Aura)
    Requires: sacrificial pit

Dreadlord

Vampiric Aura
Also increases the attack speed for melee units by a small amount (critical to compete with Unholy Aura)

Carrion Swarm
Reduce mana cost

Movement Speed
Increase movement speed to provide superior scouting

Cryptlord
Improve beetles stats
Enhance Impale to also remove magical buffs from targets

Summary

The idea is to create greater synergy with Vampiric aura (direct replacement for Unholy Aura) and generate some synergy with Abominations and other melee units. Ghouls then get a late game transformation to give them a ‘crackling’ style treatment which further synergizes with Vampiric aura but also gives them a much needed HP boost.

Where the DK/Lich/Fiend build has high burst potential (hit and run). The Dreadlord melee army focused on grinding down the opponent in prolonged combat. The Crypt-lord could also use some tactical buffs to make him a viable addition and front-line support possibly alongside Pit lord.

The upside is that this focuses on underutilized units and provides virtually no benefit to the existing Undead build. Yes, there are a few changes needed but not to the point where they cannot be managed and contained.

3 Likes
2

They won’t add something like “march of the dead” because of the special rule attached for unholy frenzy. Everything has to be cohesive, which means it has to interact with the DK.

That’s Undead’s main hinderance. The DK is such an integral, useful hero, you have to make changes around the fact that he exists. So any melee changes that you want to theorycraft should probably be based around other heroes first. (Such as Dreadlord in this case.)

3

Fair point, removed that component and change the Evolution ability to provide additional damage so it stacks better with Vampiric Aura.

With Marching Dead, improved Vampiric Aura and hero movement speed buff that would make DL a stronger pick than DK for this melee build.

1 Like
4

What was it?

So far, giving all melee units a movement speed buff as an upgrade would still interact with the DK, I don’t like it.

I don’t necessarily like this either. Too much of a cop-out. Not intuitive enough, too much like a contrived, pigeon-holed balance device.

These are good.

This is interesting. But careful for it not to be an attack speed bonus overkill.

5

What about simply changing how Disease Cloud works?

Make it more like Dark Swarm in Starcraft. Aboms and Meatwagons spread a noxious cloud on the battlefield that reduces all ranged damage inside. Alternatively, disease cloud provides 35% evasion vs Ranged attacks.

  • Cloud lingers for 5 seconds, requiring constant application.
  • This increases Abom and Ghoul survivability
  • Meatwagons can provide melee defense
  • Abom gains a support role, making them useful even in low numbers
  • AoE, Spells and Splash are unaffected, keeping them as ‘hard counter’ to mass ghouls.
  • Melee remains a strong anti-ranged counter, weak to Magic/Spells

Cons

  • Meatwagons would be providing cover for enemy back line
  • Abom hanging around Crypt Fiend army makes them more resilient
  • Redundant with Curse
  • Could make melee heroes way too survivable, esp Pitlord with Howl
6

This does not solve the issue of Ghouls being super weak from T2 on wards. All the above does is make the current DK/Lich/Fiend army stronger as now you can blind and kite the enemy pushing an already good combination over the top.

If they are going to change disease cloud it needs to make Ghouls and other melee forces stronger without buffing DK/Lich/Fiend in any meaningful way. i.e. consider it a totally different tech path. Basically, anything that gets changed or buffed has to answer question does it make DK/Lich/Fiend stronger and if the answer is YES, then it will probably be ineffective and providing a second viable path for Undead,

@ Andunai

It was a ‘one-liner’ that said does not stack with Unholy Aura

CL is tricky, I have no-idea really. Maybe some type of taunt ability? That could be a nice combo with sleep and work in with Carapace?

Ghouls are absurdly weak once T2 is available and that happens very quickly in WC3. Even with a late game buff they are always going to be susceptible to AOE damage. That is fine, but they should really be able to excel in combat with the Dreadlord backing them up. Its not like Undead has other melee units to fall back on? Some additional synergies with Aboms would just pull together a bunch of units that don’t see play into a different build direction for Undead.

7

Honestly that’s a problem with ghouls and I don’t know how to meaningfully make them better in T2 and beyond.

I think ghoul frenzy anywhere earlier could be an option, though I prefer not having this. I am also opposed to HP upgrade, since that simply makes them more homogenized to Orcs or other melee.

I like the idea of ghouls being easy to kill, but I also want to something really creative.

What about an upgrade that gives them all a chance to raise a skeleton upon death? Or maybe a chance-on-death of raising back to life as a Animated Dead unit, timed but invincible? Or maybe a Baneling-like upgrade that lets them explode on death?

8

It is a conundrum but there are only a few paths to consider:

  1. Zergling Crackling treatment. Fast, can swarm, deal high damage and are super cheap to produce

  2. Late game evolution ability. Basically morph them into some type of late game power unit

  3. As you mention, some type of on Death benefit that supports a melee type army - maybe them dieing buffs Aboms or skeletons, or gives necromancers more mana or something?

  4. Add a new melee unit and accept Ghouls are just poor Undead Footmen

Undead has the basic setup and units needed to allow a melee type army to flourish. They just need to build the synergies between the various under utilized units. Its also easier than other races as DK/Lich/Fiend is a totally different beast. SO provided the changes don’t directly buff any of those units then it will work with enough testing.

This is low hanging fruit for Blizzard IMO

9

I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure out a good idea to contribute to the competitively viable “Melee” build. I have an idea.

What if Abominations similarly to meat-wagons could carry corpses (albeit a lesser amount of corpses). Perhaps at first they have to manually pick them up, while later with the meat wagon upgrade perhaps they can generate corpses themselves.

Lets say Aboms can only hold a max of 2 corpses. This coupled with them being made a T2 unit (Which was an idea thrown around above) would synergize with having “cannibalize”.

Additionally if they made “cannibalize” instantly devour a corpse to gain a HOT (dispelled by damage).

You might begin to find a reason to not need a DK. The reality is that a meat wagon is often to cumbersome to use. and the cannibalize upgrade makes units to stationary to be useful.

making DK not the most attractive hero is such a hurdle to get over his heal and speed/regen buff.

Additional ideas I like that I have read elsewhere regarding heroes are as follows.
CL - spiked armor applied to all Scarabs
DL - unfortunately needs another buff to his vampiric aura. if not a % attack speed, maybe a % damage buff. or a set amount of damage 2/4/6

1 Like
10

I personally prefer some sort of on-death effect, mostly the auto-raise ones. It plays into more into EXP denial and gaining more benefit out of sacrificing ghouls.

I’ve been playing around with giving Ghouls a T2 movement boost ability, Scramble. It’d work like Stim without the attack speed boost. It would help in surrounds or getting out of the way, though there has to be some compensation here with DK+Unholy aura, like maybe Scramble is a fixed movespeed boost.

@Soulabsorber

I feel like Aboms generating more corpses is an awkward mechanic. Meatwagons are already little-utilized as it is, I don’t think it’s good to just remove their worth as corpse-creators entirely. I almost think the opposite should happen, and they should create corpses wherever they attack. They’re literally throwing dead bodies, so maybe a 20-sec internal cooldown, every ‘5th attack’ is a corpse.

Cannabalize being instant could be a good change. TBH I don’t see much of a problem with Cannabalize, but rather that Scourge doesn’t lack out of combat heals in late game, only in early game. Cannabalize feels like it should be a default ability.

1 Like
11

Agree that Abominations carrying corpses is a little clunky. Meat-wagons already have that role so its really just about tweaking them if changes are needed.

The line I would like to see is Disease Cloud having a buffing type effect on lesser Undead units (Ghouls, Skeletons and Beetles). If something was going to explode it would be ‘cool’ if it was the Abomination - erupt with corpses, detonate and deal AOE damage etc.

Meat-wagons launching corpses, Ghouls charging in dealing high burst damage and necromancers summoning Skeletons. Supported by Abominations and the Dreadlord - this fist the theme of an Undead Army (Vampire Lord summoning their horde of Death) swarming and overwhelming, versus the more elite hit and run style of DK/Lich/Fiend.

1 Like
12

I think the best philosophy to changes are ones that are simple, easy to implement, yet are effective.

Ghouls main issue are that they cannot close the gap without taking tremendous amounts of damage and is made worse by their low health. Ghouls from their design are not ever going to be ones that are able to stand toe-to-toe with another army without dying. I’d say an easy change would be to give them Ghoul Speed at tier 2 and we can leave Ghoul Frenzy at tier 3.

To further help Ghouls out, I’d say we should buff Vampiric Aura. Instead of 20% / 35% / 50%, let’s try 50/75/100. It sounds pretty powerful, but that’s where testing comes into play and we can tone it down. It may not be as powerful as it looks on paper.

Ghouls will move faster at tier 2, which also helps their durability as they won’t be hit. A much stronger Vampiric Aura will also help them live longer and will encourage a DL opener instead of DK, which is a plus for strategic diversity.

13

Seems like decent suggestions to me. But buffing Auras is dangerous for 2v2+.

14

Four issues with Vampiric Aura:

  1. Damage is post mitigation so the % has to be really high to have any meaningful impact

  2. Does not provide passive healing (Unholy Aura)

  3. Does not have a secondary perk (Unholy Aura)

  4. Undead has very few viable melee units that can take advantage of the Aura

I used to think Vampiric Aura was great in 2v2+ until I did some testing and realized just how little it actually heals for. Yes, its bonus healing so it helps but its probably the worst aura available…especially because only so many units in a combined army are melee, then on top of that not all of them are engaging at the same time so the actual healing provided sucks.

2 Likes
15

Based upon current WC3 philosophy, for another viable strategy to open for UD, changes need to buff underused units while not increasing the strength of DK/Lich/Fiend/Statues – which is a very difficult task. Here is what I think of the changes:

Marching Dead (replaces Ghoul Frenzy)
Would be a no go, because then it could be used with unholy aura and would be broken. See proposed gargoyle buff to speed, only to be reduced as unholy aura + gargoyles could outrun every air unit.

Disease Cloud (upgrade addition)
I like where this is heading, but it doesn’t solve the issue of ghouls dying too fast T2 and onward. The issue is relating to their health pool. It doesn’t not matter their regen or possible regen capabilities, if a few AOE spells utterly destroyers them. So, need something like below

Unholy Evolution
There is a lot going on here, but the main thing I like is increased HP. I think for ghouls to be viable; they need survivability mechanism like what archers have. Magic resistance to spell damage (not magic damage, i.e. chims, wyrms but hero spells) might be enough to make ghouls viable late game.

You cannot buff aboms more, because it would break the second rule, it would buff DK/Lich/Fiend Statues. So disease cloud changes or any other buff to aboms are unlikely.

Changes to DL are unlikely. Buffs to CL are POSSIBLE, but I don’t foresee any additional buffs, if any, would be to the armor.

My Guess on What Blizzard Will do
Based upon the philosophy of recent patches, I think the most likely change is some type of survivability buff to ghouls, a buff to sacrificial dagger, and possibly a buff to cannibalism (making it a regen effect would kind of mess with the lore, so a conservative approach would be to decrease the duration or provide some type of buff to the unit while it’s standing still.

1 Like
16

Lifesteal is just one of those difficult-to-balance things in the game. Either it’s underpowered or it’s overpowered, and never balanced. There’s no real balance to it because lifestealing is such a strong mechanic that has no limit. It’s not like it’s gonna be on cooldown or that you have any true counter against it, and it’s only useful part of the time since the UD army has an equal mix of melee and ranged.

The way I see it, Dreadlord is rarely ever seen in matchups as it is, and when it is used it’s for Carrion Swarm. At that point, taking vamp aura is just a ‘nice to have’ to keep the DK sustained. But I guess that’s the case any aura that isn’t Endurance/Unholy. They’re all just ‘nice to have’.

1 Like
17

From my experience it has never been even close to the point of being overpowered…at least in my recent memory.

They buffed Devotion Aura to the point its actually useful in 1v1 and very strong in multiplayer formats. Trueshot while niche in 1v1 is really powerful in multiplayer games. While neither is on the level of Unholy or Brilliance Aura they are still powerful abilities in their own right.

Vampiric Aura is the only one that is genuinely trash tier (Thorns is close) and therefore deserves some attention. Either to buff its raw healing potential or provide additional utility. It has a long way to go before it would become overpowered even if Undead had a host of melee units that could use it…it barely even sustains the Dreadlord effectively at level 3.

You can argue any Aura is ‘nice to have’ but on every hero with an Aura (maybe not Thorns) if you pick that hero you are typically wanting to invest in the Aura at some point. On the Dreadlord you only do it because you literally run out of other choices.

There are also plenty of counters to Lifesteal as it relies on units being in constant melee range and dealing consistent damage. Anything that reduces attack speed, damage or causes the unit to miss is a counter to lifesteal. Movement speed debuffs and kiting are also a soft melee counter, same as increasing armour given it reduces the healing due to the way Vampiric Aura works…the reality is its countered in many ways…really not seeing your argument on this one.

1 Like
18

Isn’t the Vampiric Aura OP with Bears? It has always been a huge deal when a NE finds the Bone Chimes in mirror.

19

A random pleberino, nnnnnn1 on Goodgameru, has suggested making Abombs able to carry units inside of them.

I don’t know why (aside from vore), but it sounds cool and game-breaking.

20

I wonder why nobody has suggested it, and it’s off-topic, but…

Make DK’s Animate Dead’s units able to cast spells. A buff to DK, sure, but a welcome one.