So I tested a better naval system in WC3 - Testing Theories with Eternal

General Discussion
1

This is my findings from testing my theory on another post.
-Note this was strictly done with just World Editor
Spent like 40 mins testing and editing.

So I took the map “Islands” and added Battleships and Frigates to the shipyards.

I increased stock cooldown to 1000 seconds for each boat so you could not turtle.
(Maybe I should set a max unit limit)

Then increased rotation rate and reduced collision size and Voila! The movement was 85% less clunky. It kind of felt like mass air units but on water.

Felt Nice :sunglasses:

Increased attack speed and I found out the boats were too OP. Maybe I should remove all armor and increase the cost to make them a mid game thing and something important to micro. Because air can destroy.

The battleships range let me bombard their base from water which was OP as fk. Seemed really cheezy though. Or reduce range or remove aoe ability and turn into single target? Prob not later one. Maybe I need to make water towers? Thinking of reworking an Archer tower giving it long range, high hp, slow attack speed, high dmg.

Loving it rn. Obv needs work.

Unit loading was not a problem. So was deploying but the narrow choke points that are the entrances to the land could be a prob for bigger units like abominations or knights.

I need to continue working on it but I feel that it’s really the same as massing air right now. Maybe the only difference is that units and heroes really can’t hit it. Only siege units and flying. Maybe anti-water towers for early game frigates?

The boats also can massively solo creeps on the map meaning u can pop a hero from transport ship and last hit for easy lvls; like I said needs work.

Maybe make barriers? Like buyable chain nets to block pathing. Super durable? Or invulnerable? Maybe its only for early game? 15min barrier no passage? Preventing early game exploit and ability to end game. Enough time to make anti-water towers?

What abilities should I make? (add to shipyard) to (up boats)(Strictly World Editor)

Self-Repair Upgrade?
Flare?
Nuke like from SC2? (mini version) for Battleship but then would have to turn it into a late game 1 unit max unit.
Anti Air ability (From Steam Tank)(Barrage)?
Incendiary rounds? (renamed poison ability higher dmg) (frigates)
Supply drop? generate supplies found from seas depth? Transport ship. every 5 mins.?

I was thinking water mines and barriers (chain lines) to prevent boat movement in water between passages or dam constructs but that isnt possible from world editor i think. You need custom code or outside source.

2 Likes
2

I mean it could be possible to work. But it would need some mechanic changes and Blizzard support.

If you could make a generally working naval system then it could be a base for Blizzard to use. Making the process easy.

Especially if you are doing it just off the world editor. That would make it very easy to change for them.

But likin the passion here. IMO I think it will be abit more interesting than air unit system. Because of what you can do with abilities and upgrades. Anti-Water towers would only work if they are stronger than the boats. Because Mass Boats may make them irrelevant. But you suggested good counters to that:

-Early Game Barrier on water to prevent easy win
-Long stock recharge times (units are important cant just rush)
-Expensive
-Weak to air
-Anti-Water Towers

Really all you are adding is another option to the game from just ground and air. You are expanding to ground air and water.

But if air is stronger than naval there is no point of picking it. It will continue to be ground and mass air strats…

But you do have barrage ability I see. Hmm lets see what your results are after second testing.

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So far got barrage ability on the boat but its not working… I also made a water tower but its only on land for now…

I mean its getting there. But my biggest problem is how easy it is to safely kill enemy base from water while they cant hit you unless with air.

Maybe the maps should be majority land but with one gold mine middle? Surronded by water (not bombard range but outside it). Or all shops surronded by water. To make it objective based?

Idk still tinkering.

4

I think that boats are just not ready yet for practical use in WC3.

They do not have enough mechanics and work done on them unlike the other units.

Maybe in WC4?

This means that even though you worked on it it may not be implemented.

Kudos but I would like to see a Custom Melee Map.

5

I have an odd idea.

What if (most) naval units couldn’t kill land units and structures but could still damage them (say they cannot reduce HP below 35%). Perhaps attacks vs land units also temporarily debuff them, say with a minor slowing (eg: -20% movement and attack for 10s).

That way your navy is never enough to win on its own, but can make a huge difference to battles near the shore - and can weaken a base so it’s easily destroyed.

Sea units should still be able to completely destroy air and sea units and structures.

If sea units also have a much shorter range vs other sea units then you can use land units to defend your navy vs a pure navy.

I’m not sure what effect you’d use to sea-based boat damage killing land units, it might need to be scripted.

Some anti-sea-only land towers might also help - they should be strong, fairly cheap, but very slow to build so you’re still screwed if you don’t see the navy in time.

They should probably be the same for all races if the boats are, which means perhaps letting wisps, acolytes, peasants and peons all build it in the same way - probably like peons.

6

See the thing is the whole point is some realism.

Navy is supposed to be super ranged. Excelling at destroying land. AirCraft is their counter. Strafe runs from jets and aerial attacks can sink carriers.

Then there is the threat of other naval ships like submarines etc.

The boats cant have short range or they will be useless. Unless frigates are turned into something super close range. While battleships remain as long distance bombers.

I dont think there should be a handicap like cannot reduce hp below x %

but maybe navy dmg is reduced vs land units. Making them slight support.

Making them important so that whoever has it usually win win fights. Making them targets for air units.

In real life there are tree types of warfare.

Air
Land
Ground

Ground (Can counter air)
Air(Counters Ground and Naval)
Navy(Counters Ground) (Usually deploys air units, so like jets)

As a matter of fact they all counter each other.

Ground - Ground
Air- Air
Naval - Naval

But if we look into WC3 we see ground as most used. Air would be second most used. Naval the least used.

Like real life. So they become supporting choices.

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I wasn’t considering realism at all. I was purely thinking about how to make it strategic. Usually once you’ve decided on that there’s some way to shoehorn it into a somewhat-acceptable lore and aesthetic.

I was also only thinking about retrofitting other maps. A standard shore-slaughtering navy can work fine as long as the maps it plays on were designed for it. You mentioned bombarding bases as being OP as, and being too good for creeping.

Lore-wise shoehorning attempt #1: You could possibly attack it from the ammo point of view. Everything has unlimited ammo, but archers can replenish from flora on the land. Ships are in water so they have little to fashion an unlimited supply of weaponry out of. So they’re lobbing water-filled fishskin balls which can break windows and claddings and weak things, but have little effect on the stonework itself. Ok, that’s kinda weird tho :slight_smile:

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I wouldn’t say weird - Have the ships attack with an autocast spell that uses mana. Being near land units you own gives them a bit of mana regeneration (To represent being resupplied) while having no mana regen of their own (Or very minimal).

2 Likes
9

That’s quite a cool idea. Kinda like a reverse brilliance-aura, except that overlapping aurae are independent.

10

Fkn amazing suggestion.

So the ships have to use mana to attack then?

This would mean that they cannot attack forever and must wait to periodically attack.

This also means creeping could be bad early because an enemy with full ammo could ambush your depleted ships wasting alot of gold and wood.

Interesting…

So instead of attack speed make it more one shot high dmg long recharge?

This would make them less OP.

Weak though to undead destroyer who consume mana totally… and suicide bat riders. Maybe make Dragonhawk cloud cause x% of miss and chimera causes corrosion.

11

You could also use one of the autocast attack spells like Searing Arrows. Make the weapon damage really tiny and the Searing Arrow damage quite high so that ~96% of the damage is done by the Searing Arrows.

12

I really like that idea, it’s a creative solution.

It’s a shame that the game only supports a Mana system and not any alternative resource methods. I could also see a charge system working, like HOTS’ old turret systems with a function to allow support units and ports to resupply ships.

1 Like
13

Like I told some dude today. This is totally something I want to see but if depends on the community.