(resolved) Automation for units and buildings

This discussion is done. You are welcome to discuss it yet. Thanks everybody.

Some moments playing Warcraft III is some frequent I get myself with both some units (1) and some building (2) just not working (wasting time) generally when I am busy exploring the map or walking with my hero. Refering to the units and buildings stopped, they could have an automation option to turn on. Like for the building we could propose to constantly build units (in such a way you can moderate it, low production, medium and hard) automatically and for the units propose to be walking from one building to other and from one base to the ally base automatically.

Automation is the idea. What about a button for automation?

2 Likes

Well, umm… That’s the whole point of macro management: you have to manage your base at the same time you’re army is fighting. Also, an automated unit training wouldn’t change anything - you would still have to actually manage your base, because there some much more than just training units.

If you wanted to actually make a change there, then we are talking about some fundamental gameplay changes, after which the game wouldn’t be Warcraft 3 anymore.

10 Likes

I am do something like this where players can only work with a hero and go scout get do to huge levels 60+.

Then mid game you see a bunch of footmen and units helping you creep or tackle boss monsters that would be a seperate player control those unit.

Can be up to 3 player control hero. I am think of not such a free pick for hero game. If rts player choose human then should only be only to pick human heroes. Vs elf vs elf heroes. Maybe mutual hero added in… have to see.

i can understand that for new players this isn´t easy to manage. But to make the game easier and implement automation is not a good idea in my opinion. Experienced players will not be happy about this and i think makro is an important gameplay part of warcraft 3.

I recommend to save your “unit-buildings” under a number (i save this buildings mostly under 2 or 3) then you can easy build units while you go creeping, scouting etc.

This is a real-time strategy game. Organizing units and buildings are an integral part of it. What you have in mind sounds more like a MOBA to me. And there are plenty of them out there. You don’t need to come here and ask to change the core mechanics for a 16 years old game that has aged more than well. Also as others may have said, everything you want can be easily implemented as a mod.

2 Likes

Does not matter what are my motivations to go here. It is just about an idea. I have an idea and I am sharing it. Maybe it is not a good idea or just a good idea. It is still only a idea, nothing less nothing more. It is my idea and it is here.

I accept the comments and I get back it is not the better idea to Wc3

But I still have the problem some times I have some units doing nothing.

2 Likes

It’s a nice idea, but TBH it’s an idea that is counterintuitive to how the game should be played. I think it will end up fostering bad habits and stray from the progression that players should have going into higher levels of play. Automation has the unfortunate byproduct of being a crutch to new players, who may opt to rely on it rather than expanding their focus and finding more intuitive ways of improving their macro.

But I still have the problem some times I have some units doing nothing.

You can solve it by organizing your units into groups. Other than that you have an icon for idle workers on the bottom left of your screen that appears when you have worker units doing nothing. Maybe there could be icons for other units too.

I have an idea and I am sharing it.

Feel free to share any idea. But don’t be afraid about other people opinions on them. My personal thought: Instead of learning and understanding the game mechanics you want changes tailored to your convenience. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

1 Like

IMHO, I’m fine with a few QoL-only type improvements:

  • Continuous (autocast) train.
  • Unpaid (wait-till-resources-available) train queues.
  • Paid or unpaid builder build-lists (like waypoints).

I’m OK with, but not:

  • Variable-speed production.
  • Other smart (i.e. automated decisions) building stuff.

With the first list, you’ve explicitly told the structure or unit what to do and the PC is never making decisions for you. The only downside is for those people who don’t want the UI to be more efficient because they see working the UI as actually part of the game’s skill.

However, with variable-speed production, the computer picks the time to build. So I’m against that one.

Also, allowing unpaid would mean that if you want to be pro you’d need to adapt to issuing orders just before they’re ready so you can get 100% optimal timings.

2 Likes

Practice makes perfect.

1 Like

i think the idea could be interesting in a custom game

The title is misleading because, this is not a “minor” change what your suggesting would be a major change. Buildings and unit production should not be automated.

The ONLY thing that should be automated is the starting 5 peon/workers should automatically begin mining at the start of their game, on their own without being clicked (and the 1ghoul wood collect lumber). That way on the rare instance of somebody being afk for a breif moment, they wont fall as far behind this way.

Maybe, unit grouping control could be automated too. See here: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/warcraft3/t/pre-set-control-groups-in-options

4 Likes

Eh not a fan of this idea. The funny thing is that most noob players focus wayyy to much on their hero and units. You dont need to watch the battle between your hero and the little murloc. What you need to do is focus on spending your lumber and gold correctly and building an army or working on your economy. Also, try not to double queue.

My issue is not about the PC ‘making decisions for you’, it’s that you’re relying on a function that is not intuitive towards mastering RTS Macro.

When you autocast training or have it set on ‘unpaid queue’, you are removing yourself from the act of training a unit when you need to. You are intentionally splitting your focus away from having to click a building and assigning it orders. You are doing so to allow yourself to focus on other aspects of the game, and you aren’t fostering any necessity to go back to the building to check up on it other than to toggle something off when it becomes unnecessary. That is all counterintuitive to standard play, and I honestly believe it will foster bad gaming habits.

Think of if you wanted to learn to play the Piano and decided to take a shortcut by using a synthesizer with built in melodies. With practice, you might play really good music with a synthesizer, but that is not playing the Piano. You’re learning to use shortcuts really well and your entire skillset would be dependant on those preset melodies rather than learning to play the notes themselves. That is why automation is not a good thing.

If you want to get better at Macro, then you NEED to practice macro. Practice hotkeying. Practice build orders and timing. Practice macroing while creeping or doing some other task. Automated queues do not foster any of these skills. If you don’t like macroing, there are plenty of other games with automated production, like Clash Royale.

3 Likes

Autocast build is a different argument from the rest, so I’ll get it out of the way first.

My logic here is more along the lines of “if you have a build queue, why should it have an arbitrary limit”, followed by “if you have an (unpaid) unlimited build queue, isn’t it QoL to just let you add infinity of unit X”.


For unpaid queue, one of the advantages of this is instaneous-ness. This is good for two reasons:

  • People with higher pings aren’t disadvantaged as much - their training or construction begins at the exact same time.
  • You’re not forced to wait for a second or so with your building selected until you get the resources (or start training/constructing later than necessary). Of course, some people see this as skill. But some don’t.

It’s just that I (we) don’t see those as bad habits. They were just things you used to have to do - like adjusting the choke on your car.

I disagree with the comparison. Built-in melodies is more like automated build scripts - decisions on what note to play are being made for you. The comparison here would be if you hold down a piano key it stays loud permanently, rather than having to keep pushing it again.

There’s two parts to macro - [A] deciding what to do and [B] doing it. If we’re talking about QoL etc we’re talking about modernizing a UI. I don’t want to learn/use the mechanical bits of what I see as an outdated system ([B]) if it’s not necessary and I’m not going to use it in the future.

The important skill in macro, to me, is [A]: Choosing what and when to build, based on the current state of the game.

([X/Y] mine)

These arguments assume alternatives of equal quality exist. It’s a bit like saying if you don’t like a manual transmission Ferrari you could always go for a VW or something in a world where Ferarri was the only decent car. We’re here because the alternatives aren’t good for other reasons.

4 Likes

I still disagree. I don’t see it as a difference in style of play, or as simple as being a quality of life change. I view this as learning to adapting to a subset of Warcraft 3. Macro is an important part of the game and is reflective of the ‘Real Time’ aspect just as much as we value the ‘Strategy’. It’s the act of executing unit build timings the accumulation of resources that defines skill.

I don’t believe that a technical issue of ping disadvantages is a significant factor considering all of Warcraft 3’s balance is based heavily on RNG and is much more broad in terms of how units are used rather than when. Even at a unit disadvantage, out-microing your opponent can lead to a bigger advantage than being 3-seconds behind on building a huntress for your timing attack. Automation should not be an excuse to maintain equity between players.

Automated queue (in any fashion) is not itself bad, but it does not belong in standard play. I think a change like this would be more akin to a custom game mode or alternate ladder system (FFAs, 4v4s, etc). I think the change is significant enough to be its own thing.

I completely understand that from an individual perspective, a focus would be better spent on micro than macro. That doesn’t excuse giving up the macro aspect or having QoL features diminish its necessity. I’m not good at Macro, and I’m way better at Micro, but I still value all the perceived complexities because that is what makes it Warcraft 3 and not a MOBA or Starcraft. Same can be said of SC1’s brutal lack of modern QoL systems; adding QoL would result in diminishing the value of Starcraft’s complexity and skill curve. It’s the fact that a pro player is able to manage both a high level of macro and micro that makes them pros. If we were to allow (for example) unlimited unit selection or smart casting, then a big question would be - is it still Starcraft?

I strongly believe Warcraft 3’s Macro AND Micro should be preserved as they are. I’m fine with options as long as they stay separate from the standard way to play.

It’s the same way I viewed BGH$$$ maps in Starcraft. It’s popular and it’s how many people wanted to play Starcraft, but it’s not something that should be integrated into the game as a standard. It can be officially recognized and given as an option, but outside of the standard game mode.

2 Likes

Wouldn’t a better question be, is it better?

Skill is zero sum. Increase the importance of one thing and you reduce the importance of others. So if you have a game whose main skills are quick strategic thinking and mechanical UI skill, reducing the importance of mechanical UI skill will increase the importance of strategic thinking.

This will result in more innovation, more reactive/adaptive gameplay (rather than sticking to the same plan regardless of your opponent’s actions - many pros even do this). It will especially result in more interesting games for spectators as they don’t get to see (and have little interest in) the mechanical UI actions.

You’ll see more variation in units used, more unusual situations, greater use of the map, etc. [added]: more scouting and counter-scouting, more faking, bluffing, hiding tech.

Currently, at the top level, UI muscle memory requirements means pros will be hesitant to use units they’re not very familiar with and strategies they haven’t practiced to death - even if they’re the best unit/strategy for the current situation.


BGH is the exact opposite, IMHO. It removes strategy (eg. limited mining time) and emphasizes mechanical skill. You have far more income so you need to macro more - the focus is far more on just how fast you can train units - how many buildings can you keep macroing.


I should add, the first section is basically a summation of my most important feelings on the modern-UI/QoL question - making the game more fun/varied/strategic/mentally-challenging is the whole reason I argue about this.

4 Likes

I think that’s a slippery slope. You may as well turn WC3 into a turn-based strategy then, if you wish to increase the importance of strategic thinking by reducing mechanical skill. I know this is an exaggeration; but so is the premise of reducing mechanical UI skill considering Warcraft 3 has considerably low Macro requirements as it is. The mechanical UI skill is important to the overall strategy in terms of how you are spending your resources based on the amount you are obtaining it. Effectively, this is diminishing the Real Time skill out of Resource maangement; IE spending gold effeciently vs overspending on queues rather than efficiently managing it and being able to afford items on the field. An unpaid queue would not increase strategic thinking in any meaningful way; rather it diminishes resource management for units completely. What other strategy would you be implementing that you could not be bothered to execute a well-planned build order?

A large part of punishing the opponent is being able to disrupt their focus. This is the goal of harassing the enemy’s workers. This is the goal of creep-jacking, or stealing their items. The point is each player must focus on multiple things and BE distracted, and it’s the one who makes the fewest mistakes who will have the greatest advantage. It’s capitalizing on these mistakes that differentiates the level of skill between players.

At no point do I see an unpaid queue increasing any strategy, because Warcraft 3’s unit composition is already heavily limited by its upkeep system, selection limit and presence of Heroes (which are the true offense units). At a certain point, your micro skill may be capped by an inability to supplement your own forces because you forgot to build units to replace the ones you’ve lost. Having unpaid queues make up for tunnelvision during a big battle is something that should be punished, because it is a part of the game. Having that resource management element removed because you’ve set your queue and decided not to think about it is not strategy, it’s not Warcraft 3 standard, it’s… essentially a watered down MOBA.

You won’t see ‘more’ variation in units, more unusual situations, more greater use of the map. You will see the same amount; just that the skill of the player prevents them from being able to implement those strategies because of their own oversights. A competant player does not need to spend much time on macro if they hotkey their buildings appropriately. Playing SC2 helped me learn how to macro better, following tips from Day9 has made me a better WC3 player for it. Focusing on improving on macro has made me a better player who is able to focus on more of the map. The point is; it CAN be done at the same time. Learning to do so is a big part of playing the game. If you are unable to split your focus and manage the production of units, then you aren’t playing Warcraft 3 in the way that it is intended to. For the longest while, that is the reason why I play MOBA over WC3; but at no point do I think WC3 should suddenly adopt MOBA-esque ‘QoL’ for the sake of preserving the game as WC3 and not some micro-intense derivative.

2 Likes

Real-time strategic thinking - if you go squorgs and you scout your opponent massing anti-squorgs, you need to rapidly decide what to do, and every second you don’t adapt is a gain for your opponent.

I will agree that distracting, and not being distractible, are skills, and that this would reduce them, but only a little - not enough IMHO to counter the gains elsewhere.

Not making mistakes is important, but it’s too important in WC3 because little else matters. Great ideas and a few mistakes should beat flawless ordinariness.

It only increases it indirectly, by reducing everything else. You could say skill always adds up to 1. If you reduce mechanical skill from 0.3 to 0.2, you gain 0.1 somewhere else - which is intellectual skill.

Clicking on a building just when resources are ready is a macro reflex. A player could beat one with superior strategy because they’re better at that skill - all else being equal - because they have their units just a bit earlier. Remove the importance of that skill and the player with superior strategy wins.

Unpaid queue is most beneficial only a few moments before resources are available (or training is finished). I’d actually prefer have unpaid without queue (and even without autocast train) to queue without unpaid (even with autocast train).

If the intellectual skill fraction is increased it will increase the average intellectual skill (good and rapid planning) of players, increasing adaptive gameplay. Adaptive gameplay almost certainly means more varied units.

If muscle memory is reduced, the downsides to choosing less-practiced units will be smaller - hence more unit variation.

I’m not sure how RTS QoL can be described as MOBA-esque. MOBAs lack every element that RTS QoL relates to.

  • Training/construction - nope.
  • Unit groups - no (or occasionally tiny ones for some heroes).
  • Harvesting - nope.

MOBA is also basically RTS minus 95% of the strategic elements (or 99% if solo). It’s basically like comparing hockey to golf.

Which goes back to your:

Above you compare my desires to a TBS/turn-based strategy, now you compare them to a MOBA - but TBS and MOBA are like polar opposites. I get the TBS comparison kinda, I don’t get this one at all. MOBAs are almost pure mechanical skill and very little intellectual skill.

When there’s less need to split your focus between macro and micro, you free up time (focus) to engage in more complex strategies like split attacks, scouting, expanding, faking, etc.

Unfortunately, WC3 hasn’t been balanced too well for innovative gameplay. So much teleport makes map position and unit speed less relevant, counters aren’t hard enough, units are too flexible. Original WC3 wasn’t bad, but TFT made things worse (a good example being siege damage changes).

3 Likes

Real-time strategic thinking - if you go squorgs and you scout your opponent massing anti-squorgs, you need to rapidly decide what to do, and every second you don’t adapt is a gain for your opponent.

You can do that without sacrificing anything. Splitting your focus to attend to macro does not inhibit your ability to scout unless you are intentionally tunnel visioning yourself. What happens when you attack the enemy base while your own base is being attacked? You will need to split your attention, and that is a part of the strategy element of all RTS games. This is all a part of army and base management, something integral to the design of WC3.

It only increases it indirectly, by reducing everything else. You could say skill always adds up to 1. If you reduce mechanical skill from 0.3 to 0.2, you gain 0.1 somewhere else - which is intellectual skill.

Not necessarily. Look at MOBAs where all macro-oriented mechanical skill has been (effectively) removed. At the base level, this is still an RTS, simply refined to an extreme where your hero represents an entire army’s worth of offensive capability. Where is your strategy? It’s all about the ganking, the jungling, soaking/last-hitting, buying items and scouting the enemy. These are all the same things you would be doing if you aren’t focusing on macro in WC3.

Yet you now lack the ability to disrupt your opponent’s attention towards any type of macro. You lack the complexity that is involved with attack timings, expanding or having enough resources to buy necessary items. You gained more intellectual skill while limiting options to play mind games with your opponent. We’re simply talking about a different cost, and effectively this changes the underlying complexity of the game.

Clicking on a building just when resources are ready is a macro reflex. A player could beat one with superior strategy because they’re better at that skill - all else being equal - because they have their units just a bit earlier. Remove the importance of that skill and the player with superior strategy wins.

Unpaid queue is most beneficial only a few moments before resources are available (or training is finished). I’d actually prefer have unpaid without queue (and even without autocast train) to queue without unpaid (even with autocast train).

The reason queues are paid is to give a player an option, but at a cost. The design is similar to upkeep, where if you want a larger army, then you will get less mining income. Queues are an advantage. In a situation where queues are no longer an advantage and are baked into a standard way of play, you can equate it to removing upkeep or diminishing it; or adding unlimited selection to make it easier to macro select units. This effectively changes how WC3 plays no matter how you look at it. It is not just quality of life, it is changing how the game is approached entirely. Without upkeep, you will make larger armies. Without selection limits, you would always group your army in a death ball. This is not how Warcraft 3 is played. You may as well be playing a SC2 mod of WC3 instead.

If the intellectual skill fraction is increased it will increase the average intellectual skill (good and rapid planning) of players, increasing adaptive gameplay. Adaptive gameplay almost certainly means more varied units.

There is nothing preventing adaptive gameplay or varied units in any level of the game. I see this as an excuse for not learning how to play the game properly.

Mechanical UI macro and strategic thinking aren’t mutually exclusive.
You aren’t diminishing any ability to strategize by having to click on buildings to make units. That would be like saying driving automatic allows for more intellectual skill vs driving manual; it’s an unfounded statement.

If muscle memory is reduced, the downsides to choosing less-practiced units will be smaller - hence more unit variation.

There is no basis to this statement. Muscle memory is a part of learning how to play any game. Muscle memory is a large part of Micro, and clicking buildings (or more efficiently, hitting a series of hotkeys) to create units is a part of that micro. You would actually be diminishing ‘intellectual skill’ by pre-planning which units to create and committing them to a queue. You aren’t increasing variety if you are queuing up unit production from the same building; unit variety is based on having many buildings and building from each which an unpaid queue would not resolve.

When there’s less need to split your focus between macro and micro, you free up time (focus) to engage in more complex strategies like split attacks, scouting, expanding, faking, etc.

Untrue. Pros show that it can all be achieved with enough practice and skill to execute. Watch some Day9 videos breaking down how top SC/2 players are able to macro while attacking AND micro at the same time. Splitting marines to avoid baneling splash while using hotkeys to continue production of marines. That is all a part of strategy, and setting things to a queue would not resolve any of the perceived macro issues that you have brought up. You gain no significant Strategic/Intellectual skill advantage by having queues be unpaid. The ability to queue already exists, and an unpaid queue would not be QoL for anyone who macros efficiently.

It’s like suggesting that making unlimited selection would help micro by decreasing the amount of hotkey groups required. It has the opposite effect because good micro involves separating small groups of units or focusing on individual unit actions. In this case, good macro is about creating units when necessary to make the most of resource management. Queues have the opposite effect and their existence is already a handicap towards low-macro players. The cost of queuing is reflective of a lower skill cap for those who depend on its use. It is inefficient yet effective, and any player who wants to become better at macro would have to focus on good macro play rather than rely more on a system that promotes a ‘set-and-forget’ style of play.