As a bit of a mapper, it has been a disappointment that there is only one pathable level in which to make terrain. Will it be possible to be able to make multiple levels in the reforged editor, such as actual land bridges with the ability of walking both across, and underneath? This would allow for amazing creations for custom maps with the ability to make towers, leveled dungeons, more immersive cities, and others. Any comment on whether this is already intended to be a possibility, or for this capability to be added?
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doubtful.
the Pathing AI isnt that great as it stands, and it would probably get confused easily and get stuck trying to path over or under a bridge. I feel like they would need to add a lot to the AI just to smooth it out, else half your army would take the lower route and half your army turns arouns to take the higher path because its calculating shortest distance rather than priroritizing paths.
Would be also cool to make creating moving terrain pieces possible (i.e., flying Dalaran).
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Not possible. There is a reason even StarCraft II does not support this.
Not only would it require an entirely new path finder to support, one that is likely much slower than the existing one, but it raises a huge number of questions how units on different pathing layers should interact. For example should a melee unit under a bridge be able to attack units on top of the bridge? With current logic this would be the case since the system uses physical 2D proximity to resolve targets. Or would they need a new combat system, one which uses more resources, to try and resolve that a melee unit is under another unit so has to path around to the top to attack it?
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Thatâs a good point, although is that very complicated, especially when they did say they were updating the engine anyway? Iâm not too familiar, but you raise a good point, although one that I wouldnât think should give too much trouble to the programmers. This sort of 3d pathing ai is not exactly new is it?
Adunai, I agree that would be cool.
They are updating the engine. Specifically the graphics part of it as well as adding LUA and such. They are not going to be changing core parts of the engine like the path finder too much since that has the potential to break a lot of maps.
How many RTS games do you know of that has such logic and support hundreds of units at the same time? The closest I can think of is Supreme Commander and its sequel which did have a 3D combat engine (aircraft could be hit by artillery shells) however even that ultimately only had 1 pathing layer to deal with.
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How does elevation currently work then? We can have melee units directly next to an enemy, though one is on a cliff, and the other on lower elevation, and they do not attack. Not to be argumentative, just seems the pathing is almost there.
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Cliffs are 1 tile wide. For a unit to be known as âmeleeâ it has less than 1 tile attack range. Additionally nothing would stop them checking for this 1 tile of unpathable pathing that makes up a cliff.
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Couldnât they impose distance limitation, and make every cliff above the melee requirement? Or impose a variable based on elevation state, and to attack another unit, the elevation state would have to be equal to theirs? Other than that, isnât pathing typically based on location and distance such that a unit trying to path the shortest/quickest route would either go below a bridge, or across the bridge based on itâs location and the distance traveled? Then again I am not a programmer, so maybe these factors are not exactly translatable as Iâm thinking.
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Just curious, do you have something planned for use for land bridges or tunnels?
TBH I think thereâs always workarounds without actually creating a physical bridge, like a elevated land bridge with doodads on the side mimicing a tunnel, and teleporters from one side to the other. Going through a âcaveâ so to speak.
Still, the issues with having elevated planes is that it doesnât play nice with an isometric camera. The best way to do elevation is like Haunted Mines in Heroes of the Storm, using teleporters and a different tileset to mimic alternate routes. That would probably be the best way to mimic leveled dungeons, doing it Diablo 1 style where you go down stairs and the camera gets teleported to another section of the map.
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Itâs a different issue altogether, but there is at least one legitimate thing that mimics 3D space in WC3 - thatâs the travel time of a projectile. Itâs longer when the target is on a different altitude than the attacker. Thatâs what the Dota2 Gamepedia says, at least.
And what about ramps? Since those transition cliff levels.
Yes however that would require a mesh based path finder as well as multiple map layers for units to move around on. Then there would need to be transitions between the layers. Additionally some sort of hit detection system representing barriers between layers for range units. Additionally range would need to be 3D to accommodate relative positional differences between layers.
All this is very possible, but it is not trivial to implement. Additionally it will be much more resource intensive than the current solution and likely would not be backwards compatible with existing maps meaning both systems would need to exist and be maintained in parallel. Since it would be less tested than the existing system it will likely be very buggy as well.
I am not quite sure of thatâŚ
DotA2 is completely and utterly unrelated to Warcraft III. The engine likely has no shared code. DotA2 uses Valveâs FPS engine, which would simulate physics and would explain why in DotA2 that is a thing.
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Iâm with OP though, it seems like the Pathing AI is pretty needing an overhaul anyways. There are plenty of Custom Maps with âbrokenâ pathing, where it doesnât register water or other blockages. Having the ability to truly do multiple levels would be amazing. Sure you can put instant-teleporters on either side of a bridge, but there are plenty of targetting-AI exploits you can do with those that tend to mess with balance.
movement AI can already work fine walking under a bridge using waypoints. (you make a bridge, you make a waypoint on each side linked to eachother.
The AI knows if the shortest path is under the bridge, or up and over it, and will use the waypoints accordingly. (I actually have this setup in one of my custom maps) though this setup is wonky.
so is fighting/controlling units under a bridge.
I personally feel the best solution would be simply locking the z-position of units (so they dont try to step on-top of the bridge when walking âthroughâ it) and forcing the unit to move.
for melee under-bridge movement/fighting is a logistical and mechanical nightmare (difficult to code, and really hard to control units that are under a bridge.)
In first/3rd person games where your camera isnt in directly above the action it makes more sense.
And i mean if were getting all nitpicky shouldnt units be able to walk through the woods? (actually they should add more under-brush to make it look like you shouldnt be able to just âenterâ the woods.
The problem is when you have units on one side, and you port through with a single unit to drag clumps back through. The non-continuity causes balancing problems. You can see this in numerous maps, like Coming of the Horde or Lords of Middle Earth. Itâs very exploit-heavy and honestly kinda a mess.
The point of Reforged is to polish the harsher edges of Wc3, and I see no feasible reason that this couldnât be added to the list.