OP fully updated. Please see post #1 in this thread.
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Improving the zoom function to be more granular is a great feature
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Again, what is this addressing outside Grubby’s complaint after losing a game?
This will break the game balance further.
What is Elf supposed to do vs UD? Seriously, why is the biggest imbalance in the matchups ignored to this day.
NE vs HU is being pointed out a lot this patch with many buffs to HU and nerfs to DH. Like seriously, HU is getting militia buff, claw buff (more important early game as AM needs to right click DH away), Archmage buff, MK buff, Paladin buff, Keep/Castle buff, Priest dispel qol buff. And for NE, the ring is nerfed (nerf to DH), immolation is nerfed, mana flare nerfed. The biggest impact would be militia duration buff, demon hunter nerf, and mana flare nerfed.
NE vs Orc is being pointed out with Orc getting buffs on walkers. And this was considered as close to perfect balance as possible at top scene mmr. And Orc is also getting its troll headhunter back. With the change in spirit walker, we don’t know the impacts overall (there could be headhunter/walker plays. Maybe even taurens) which could tilt the scale quite a bit (since it’s a strat that’s never been tested in the matchup [is it even viable? Who knows until post PTR]).
NE vs UD has extreme imbalance in the side of UD.
By nerfing moonwell juice, what are you addressing now? It makes NE strictly worse in all 3 matchups.
NE vs Orc is as close to 50% in the game as possible at top scene. And Orc is getting buffs while Demon Hunter is getting nerfs. So the matchup that was as close to 50 50 got more buffs to 1 side and nerfs to other side with this change. How does that make sense?
NE vs HU with all the HU changes will quite possibly tilt just a tad bit to the HU side. It’s a 2.1% advantage to fix which with all the buffs HU got on the PTR and nerfs NE got, do we really believe it’s still not enough to address 2.1%?
NE vs UD is UD domination with 7.3% advantage. Players this patch were complaining hard about NE vs HU in top scene with a 2.1% advantage for NE. 7.3% is extreme and far greater.
So what is this seriously addressing? Immolation activation cost already went up in PTR. Are we purging immolation from the game again? Then DH wouldn’t really be playable most maps vs HU again which tilts the scale a lot.
Immolation without moonwell juice is committing suicide in this game. Why did we introduce such a poor spell design if we are going this route?
This makes absolutely zero sense. If we are going with this, we need:
- Rifles nerfed a bit
- Blademaster mirror image and Shadowhunter Serpent Ward nerfed
- Severe nerfs to UD to balance NE vs UD
Otherwise, this change has nothing to do with balance and recent complaints from Grubby in his game in which he played poorly. And then the general viewer just accepting as ‘truth’.
Why are we giving priorities to someone who is retired and mostly plays Dota and the like? Do competitive pro scene not matter? The crazier part is Grubby complains after not playing the meta for the patch; why should someone’s voice count when he doesn’t play the units that have been buffed and instead want to play strats “back in the days” a decade ago?
When are we going to address NE vs UD having 7.3% advantage for UD in the pro scene in the matchup? Why is the most problematic matchup in competitive w3champions ladder ignored all PTR?
Units like obsidian statue scales so well late game. Moonwell can only heal one. And blight is auto regen at home. The truth is vs UD in the current patch, even the current moonwell juice is nowhere enough healing to survive vs UD. So again, what are you addressing? Are we going to nerf statue HP regen again which could break other matchups for UD?
1 statue can heal 80+ food. No moonwell juice can heal that much. On top of unholy aura and blight. There’s just far more overall healing in game in UD side of NE vs UD. Hence, I seriously don’t understand this change. The worst part is when it’s daytime, if NE doesn’t have moonwell juice, during that entire time period, NE is vulnerable to large dragged on fights. Something races like UD and HU have no problems with.
Am I just supposed to enjoy the infinite frost nova with no unit cap through dark ritual on daytime once I make hippos vs gargs? My hippos when I fight vs UD players are like 70% hp before fight much of times because I don’t have the capacity to heal. Meanwhile, UD ghouls, gargs, heroes are always full HP before fight. How does that make sense?
WHY IS GHOULS AND GARGOYLES STILL NOT ADDRESSED. AND THE FACT NERUBIAN TOWER IS 5 FORTIFIED ARMOR AND CAN BE DROPPED 4 MIN INTO THE GAME IN ELF BASE. AND THE FACT NE HAS NO COUNTERPLAY TO UD TIER 1/2 EXPANSION
In what strategy game does some strategies not have any legitimate counter. Like… why is UD able to play MOBA while NE has to play RTS on the matchup? And how come this is never addressed.
3 Likes
My day ruined.
Well done, Kaivax. You, and your f***** Blizztards are just killing NE race entirely. Keep listening Grubby and other mongrels who told you about what’s OP and what is not, and you’ll lose WC3 as well.
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(Warcraft III: Reforged Patch Notes):
Not working. After Impale, units stop targeting Impaled unit and start attacking all around.
statue heal 6 units max
Moonwells used to be 1.25 regeneration before they were buffed to 1.5. The new value of 1.35 is still better than what it is used to be before
5 Likes
And NE defensive structure like AoWar has less HP + far less damage.
And rifles got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And peasants have more HP since 1.26.
And arcane tower takes far more mana since 1.26.
And blademaster mirror image got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And shadowhunter serpent wards got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And orc gets fortified burrow and tower at tier 2 now.
And orc expansion got buffed.
And troll headhunters are much stronger since 1.26.
And grunts have far more hp since 1.26.
And Demon Hunter base AGI nerfed.
And so and so on.
Then there’s movement speed changes on heroes which have opened strats like Mountain King first vs Demon Hunter in pro scene (something that would have sounded outrageous back in 1.26).
The game is different from 1.26.
The game in recent years have been getting balanced around the new moonwell juice.
So to create a fair game, you HAVE to adjust some nerfs again to all race proportionately.
Grubby only whines because he doesn’t even play the meta. He expects something he used a decade ago to still work perfectly fine. Why? Every player in competitive scene was forced to adapt (this goes for all races).
Why should we cater to a guy who retired and plays Dota, etc… And ignore players who are playing the current meta.
It is entirely on Grubby’s fault for him not taking full advantage of mirror image and serpent wards this patch. I also hate the fact that his opinions greatly influence what many players think (because he was a legend a decade ago, he has significant influences to this day even though he doesn’t play competitive scene anymore).
(hypothetical example)
It’s like Tod noting his rifles buffed and not ever making a rifle. Or when he does, he doesn’t know how to use them and never goes two barrack rifles too. Why should that dictate balance of pro scene when all the top pros go rifles?
This is absolutely dumb. Grubby is the reason we have stupid spiked so strong and fortified orc towers at tier 2. Something so many players who actively play hate this patch.
The part that frustrates me most is there is as close to objective data with the help of w3champions. It should be a good starting ground for changes.
| Match Up | Difference | Favored Race |
|---|---|---|
| Human vs Night Elf | -2.1% | Night Elf |
| Human vs Orc | 5.1% | Human |
| Human vs Undead | 1.6% | None |
| Orc vs Night Elf | -0.2% | None |
| Orc vs Undead | 1.4% | None |
| Undead vs Night Elf | 7.3% | Undead |
HU vs Orc might become very close with troll headhunter back in menu.
HU vs NE is addressed a lot on the PTR.
Orc vs NE is the closest to fair balance in game.
UD vs NE is completely broken at all competitive MMR ladder.
So now we nerf NE in NE vs HU more.
And then in NE vs Orc which is currently the ideal balance, Orc gets trolls + walkers while DH gets nerfed. And now we get moonwell juice nerf too.
And then this just breaks NE vs UD more since NE is lacking heal vs UD’s too much damage output in game.
So this just makes NE vs Orc even worse (which could already favor a slight bit with trolls + walkers). And makes NE vs UD significantly worse.
Again, what is the reasoning?
Please use w3champions stats adjusted by MMR provided by Dondolore on his Google Sheets as a starting reference. That should be how balance should be started. Not what some retired player who is playing an outdated strat and realizing his strat is outdated in the game.
Grubby wants to play the strats he played a decade ago. But why should his needs be a priority over the current pro scene?
5 Likes
Great changes, keep up the good work.
More BNet maps to ladder please, less W3C maps.
1 Like
How does these changes help NE vs UD in anyway, especially the 9min ghoul-frenzy timing push? 10% nerf on moonwell juice is something that will break the matchup even more - we are looking already at a 7.3% advantage for UD.
2 Likes
Now NE spends a lot more moonwell juice because of ring of protection nerf and immolation activation cost.
AND moonwell juice is getting nerfed.
UD is going to have a field day for sure. Apparently 7.3% imbalance in the game wasn’t enough. We need to hit double digit %.
Right now at pro scene, ghouls come at tier 3 and top NE lose with: using all the potions in shop (300 gold thrown out), home base advantage (all the moonwells), fighting next to ancients. And NE heroes many times explode inside base because there’s just not enough healing at the current patch to defend against the UD tier 3 timing push.
And then there’s also the issue with 2 base+ gargoyles having no real counter in the pro scene (since gargoyles are 2 food and deal double damage vs dryads on top of air units not having collision issues. And because gargoyles come right away from crypt and can also creep/stone form on top of frost nova having no unit cap and dreadlord having swarm/vampiric).
And how Elf doesn’t have an answer to get the same gold as UD when UD expands at tier 1/2 since Tree of Life is far more expensive AND needs to root afterwards.
And then there’s also the super late game issue with banshees hard countering with antimagic and possess. Once every unit is in antimagic, then heroes like panda is deleted from the game. And possess hard counters bears which forces Elf to go MGs which don’t deal DPS. Hence winning because NE cannot make an actual army to fight the UD army since the only unit that competes vs fiends/abominations is bears which cannot be gotten due to banshees (possess and bye bye).
And of course, the extreme issue. The fact nerubian towers are so difficult to destroy because of the ridiculous acolyte repair on top and because it’s 5 fortified armor 4 minutes to the game.
I’m sorry. But even Orc used to have fortified at tier 3 in the past. And it was only recently to tier 2. This is at tier 1 WITHOUT ANY upgrades available right away 4 minutes AT AN OPPONENT’S BASE.
4 Likes
I am speechless. Instead of addressing ghoul frenzy so elf undead games go beyond 8-9 min mark, you guys nerfed moon wells. In a patch with nerubian tower rush and timing pushes from undeads. Revert this change and finally address freaking ghouls. Please.
3 Likes
“Strong and fortified orc towers at tier 2” were made because of the elf Druid of the Talon. The Druid of the Talon worked excellently against both units and heroes, as well as buildings (economy) and air units. An absolutely versatile unit that shouldn’t have existed in the game. It’s like a catapult that counters both heroes and units. Foggy with talons on cooldown was winning against Lyn, Focus, etc.
Where do you see the advantage in UD/NE? Your statistics are incorrect. Try removing Happy’s games from it. And for fairness, you can remove any of the elves. And look at the outcome of your statistics.
Warden got a massive buff. It is too early to worry about NE vs HU favouring HU. If any, I think Warden Panda or solo Warden will own HU, despite the nerf of faeries. DH was nerfed, alright, but that does not matter if you play Warden. If any, I am afraid for the humans (especially in maps without zepellin).
As for NE vs ORC, is true ORC had some good buffs, but mainly to walker play, which is not the predominant strategy. Also on hhs, which are not the main weapon against NE. Even with moon wells at 1.35, I think this MU should be tested before.
That being said, maybe trying 1.4 rather than 1.35 would be better.
I do worry a lot about the UD vs NE MU. This one will be indeed a challenge. I think this problem can be addressed by nerfing the research time (by a lot of time!) on frenzy. It is the MU where the upgrade is the most impactful. A slight nerf to nova may be a good idea as well. Stomp was crazy good and was nerfed, clap was crazy good and was nerfed. But nova remains untouched, by far the best no-ultimate skill: an 8-second slow on an 8-second cold-down with 800 range (+ very good damage)…
I also worry a bit about ORC vs HU with this new buff on HHs. The early game is already hard for humans against ORC. It is true that later the scale goes on the human favour, so it may be alright.
3 Likes
It’s been done. And the difference was still the highest in matchup imbalance. Please refer to dondolore’s updated w3champions mmr adjusted stats for Season 16.
UD dominates Elf at all competitive MMR range. It’s the only matchup that really has a common issue across the MMR.
2 Likes
“Moonwell mana regeneration reduced from 1.5 to 1.35.” This is a good change, leave it as it is.
In the patch prior to 1.30, it was 1.25, and the elves played quite well. The thing is, the balance is heavily in favor of the elves now. Other races have to come up with something, make changes. Even the strategy with Nerubian Tower (which doesn’t work) appeared not without reason but out of desperation for playing as UD and experimenting with it. HUM has tried everything against elves. Happy himself started playing ghouls instead of spiders. Sometimes gargoyles, sometimes Dreadlord. He has to come up with new strategies all the time, not because of good balance. But elves with their overpowered Demon Hunter didn’t have to think much. Since patch 1.30, elves haven’t brought anything new to the game. Because they don’t need to. It’s so easy, and it’s more than enough. They play with the imbalance. Although elves are the only race that can play with any hero and unit composition from the tavern.
So, reducing Moonwell mana regeneration from 1.5 to 1.35 is a good change. It could have been nerfed more, but elves are already swear. (Although in the previous patch, statues for UD were nerfed by 33%, and there was no uproar).
Kaivax, or whoever is responsible for the patches, stick to your decision. You did it right (you could have done more). Perhaps this change will bring the game to a good balance.
10 Likes
PTR crashes when I’m trying to either watch a replay or observe a custom game in singleplayer.
moonwell nerf seems unnecessary…
一个新功能都没有，就这点数据修改你还月底发布？你们团队是彻底不要脸了是吧。