PTR Ud Problems

Just played the ptr.

The undead changes are completely irellevant. New item is aoe heal, ghouls and fiends are subject to focus fire. So the item is largely irellevant and the worst heal item of all races. The time it takes to click the item and select a skeleton and heal > damage done by opponent

Second. The necro change is irellevant because something called dispel exists.

By buffing other races heroes and units ud just became even more weaker.

I’m never going to get reforged as an undead player.

It is like undead Always has been this joke. And when you ”buff” them its like: ”lets buff everything that everyone Can counter 1 tier before its good”. Seriously?

What use are necros when others have t2 dispel? You Can biff them to oblivion, still no change. A new item that needs double the micro compared to all other races and that heals less due to the relevance of focus fire.

Necro good vs orc? Ok go whyvern and GG.

Balance isn´t complete. Be patient.

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I haven’t played PTR, not a competitive player at all. But from what I’m aware of heals for each race, Ritual Dagger isn’t supposed to negate damage done by opponents, it’s a heal for the Scourge.

The fact you even get a heal is already better than not having it, and it works as a combat heal and unit deny item which is really good. You are supposed to use it on a unit that’s about to die and deny the opponent of the EXP in combat, and outside of combat it’s basically a free heal off a skeleton.

The healing done is quite low, but keep in mind it is an in-combat effect. Healing Salve and Scroll of Regen get cancelled out when attacked. Ritual Dagger is basically a mini heal scroll + EXP deny.

Necro changes I’ve heard it’s a mixed bag so I think it will take time for the Devs to figure out how to properly balance the spells.

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Only because you are not blind doesn’t mean you can see. UD is considered as the strongest race ATM. 1.30 and 1.31 PTR.
And this item is great.

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Hahahha. 1.30. NE owns both patches. Why? Motivate it please…

Dominate where? Proplay? No
I see. You want me to say 1.30 was not good to Nightelves but sadly i am talking about the current patch

Dont listen this guy. He joined this game Nov 23, '18

He basicially thinks that he loses because of the imbalance of other races. The truth is that he doesnt understand how much other players have practised this game before.

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@ FongRuleZ

You are low skilled player please dont talk about balance changes. Undead is very strong race and can heal units well (blight regeneration, auras, ritualdagger, statue heal, scrool of healing…)

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What undead lacks that the other 4 races have is a way to restore chip damage to units efficiently outside of combat at tier 1- relying entirely on death coil. Sacrificial dagger doesn’t really do that. In combat its value is as everyone has discussed in this thread and the PTR one. But outside of combat, its not at all an efficient item. The unit you’re losing costs a minimum ~20 gold per use, a minimum 75 to enable, even for a skeleton or acolyte, and the goal should be to heal your damaged ghouls/fiends, not lose them. Ghouls at least have feast, and that would probably be enough if UD t1 wasn’t so reliant on fiends.

Every other race has this form of cost efficient regen to restore your units at t1. Moon wells, scrolls of regeneration, healing salves. A 2x 67.5 gold 100 hp scroll of healing that costs you a 18.75 gold unit- can’t compare to a 100 gold 225 hp aoe heal.

I wouldn’t mind it if it instead of sacrificing a unit, it targeted a corpse, perhaps taking ~3 seconds channeling time, and then provided an AoE non-combat healing like scroll of regeneration. Perhaps a faster and more efficient heal to compare to the requirement of a corpse and maybe channeling. Something like 125 gold, 2 charges, 600 aoe, 100 cast range, devours a corpse after 3 seconds to restore 175 hp over 25 seconds

And then to make it even better, sacrificial skulls could create a corpse of a ghoul where they’re cast.

I posted it in the PTR-Thread but I can post it here again.

Instead of making Ritual Dagger an instant heal item perhaps it could be adjusted to a healing over time item like the Scroll of Regeneration. Otherwise it seems that the Dagger is more like a cheaper version of the Scroll of Healing.

In terms of balance of healing items a sacrificed friendly Undead unit could heal injured units with half of their maximum hit points over 45 seconds (suggested numbers below).

In my opinion that could balance it out in terms of healing during and between combat situation. Regardless of this, blight would continue to be a (more or less) meaningful race specific healing feature.

Undead-Player could also use a greater variety of tavern heroes in this way without hitting balance issues.

The stats and description could be:

Bought from Tomb of Relics
100 Gold, 2 Charges
20 second cooldown between charges
Stock 1
90 second restock time
400 cast range
600 ability effect radius
Available at Tier 1
Effect: Sacrifices a friendly Undead unit to heal half of their maximum hit points to all friendly non-mechanical units over 45 seconds.
Note: The effect is dispelled, if the target is attacked or damaged by an ability that does at least 20 damage, before the damage is modified.

With this changes the UD-Player can decide if he wants to sacrifice a cheap unit for less healing (for example a skeleton warrior for 2.11 HP/sec) or a more expensive unit for more healing (f.e. a ghoul for 3.77 HP/sec; crypt fiend for 6.11 HP/sec).

So what if it does? undead have different health regenation system while on blight. If it doesnt fit your playstyle maybe you should pick another race that fits it more?

Point is not make each race asymmetrical that would make the game really boring. There are many strenght that ud has and other races doesnt have, like shooting main hall. Also undead has ability to sell buildings which other races doesnt have?

Why dont you complain aswell that orc doesnt have ability to seel buildings? Because you are iqnorant and only wanna buff ur own race.

I’m not a fan of the ritual dagger simply because it gives Undead heroes way too many items to carry. Rod and TP are already mandatory on UD. I would have rather seen them buff sacrificial skull to have more charges.

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Fixing that UD have no access to regen is precisely what Blizzard cited as their reason for adding the dagger. All four races have a loose symmetry at Tier 1- heroes with summons to tank while creeping, heavy armor normal damage melee units, medium armor piercing damage ranged units and a source of both HP and Mana regeneration outside combat. Except UD. UD has no HP or Mana regen, unlike moon wells, clarities, scrolls of regen, healing salves, etc.

If Blizzard wanted to preserve this conspicuous hole in UD’s gameplay, they wouldn’t have added the dagger. But besides the fact that they did, plenty of pro players and people who actually understand the game design have pointed out the many flaws this has introduced. Notably, the lack of regen has utterly killed hero diversity in UD, leaving them reliant on death knight. That’s actually a twofold issue which blizzard only half identified in their balance patch explanations- DK is both the only source of healing for the regenless T1 of UD, and also an absolutely necessary speed buff for their slow units. Perhaps unknowingly, the change to necros actually help address this latter fact, since one of UD’s issues was that only frost nova served to help create a mobility differential with other races, whereas orc have scroll of speed, endurance aura, hex, ensnare, war stomp, bloodlust, stasis wards, orb of lightning, wind walk, purge- (NE and HU have their own skills like slow and slow poison). UD have both a glut of 270 ms units and only frost nova, unholy aura, impale, sleep, web, cripple and frost wyrm slow to make that up. Given the previous awful access to wyrms, cripple, impale, sleep- UD was left with just exceptionally good anti-air mobility but terrible anti-ground mobility. And thus forced to go DK-Lich every game

Blizzard identified the former as a flaw and want to rectify it. They’re right to do so. The game isn’t made better by DK being mandatory. Regen on blight doesn’t fix this in any way or form- every race already has regen on organic units. If anything, UD spends far more time off blight and has worse regen than other races overall.

If Blizzard wants to fix the access to regen for UD, then the dagger is a good starting point, but perhaps not a good solution.

To expand on my idea above, if they really wanted to go oddball, and idea might be something like this:

New Item: Grim Ward - 125 Gold

  • 2 Charges, 400 cast range, 600 aoe
  • Turns a corpse into a fetish ward that rejuvenates nearby units
  • Regenerates 150 hp and 75 mana over 15 seconds to nearby units
  • Ward has 1 hp and can be destroyed or stolen

Thus it could be used while in the middle of creeping, much like rod of necromancy, but you’d have to remain parked near the ward while in use unlike scroll / clarity- and in combat it could have a minor impact, but easily quickly destroyed by any hit

Play around with the numbers. But my main point is, burning through both rod and dagger charges just to restore 100 hp at a time is very inefficient at healing outside combat, restrictive on demand and doesn’t solve UD’s mana issues.

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clarities were overpowered and removed many years ago. there was a time where all 4 shops had the clarity pot…ud spells are just very impactful for early game, so the decision making had to be a thing when using them and clarities went bye bye.

secondly undead have unholy aura, and cannibalize. tier 1 isn’t really a place you want to stay as undead anyway…not because of the heal, but because you want to get the orb. tier 2 undead have the strongest, and most abundant combat heal options in the game. Statues (best heal in the game. yes it’s better than priest heal because it’s aoe on a stronger unit), unholy aura, burrow, blight regen, death pact, death coil.

well blight is pretty good, and then in tier 2 they get the best combat-healing in the game so…i mean it’s a pretty fair trade to me. why would the race with the best healing need to have it in all three phases of the game?

secondly, all tier 1 units move at the same speed except huntress, which moves at the same speed as frenzied ghouls. so, really, unholy aura just makes ud really fast, that’s all. fiends archers footies ghouls rifles and grunts all move at the exact same speed. in fact…i personally always felt that ud had the fastest army in the game…(i mean i guess orcs if they get TC, but i always considered orc the slowest). /shrug, whatever i guess.

honestly, ud don’t need any more healing. I’m on board with grubby on his review of the dagger…all that’s gonna happen is ud is going to continue going DK, except now with a dagger to heal even more.

lol.

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You can think it that way but also other races doesnt have summonable critter spell like ud has at t1.

Its not like healing salve is super op because it doesnt heal instantly and the healing effect can also be cancelled.

The design of the undead I believe has been to make undead more bace centered than other races. Where as elf can quickly go heal with moonwells, undead has to go on blight and waith for slower health regenation. Its not like still good as healing salve but blight regenation is actually decent when you left undead unit into it you need to wait like 1 min and the healing is done.

Lets compare:
Blight regenation = 2hp/s
Healing salve regenation = 8,8hp/s (max health gained 400)

So with undead it takes 4 times more time to heal than units with healing salve. But undead healing is completely free.

he propably doesnt understand that undead blight regenates health. he is a big noob lol.

Its not that I want to suggest it “for real” but I recently thought about a better version of a sacrifial skull, like more expensive, and with infinite stacks, for T2 or T3. So you can fight on new blight every 90 seconds or something.

I mean, the original sacrifical skull is already nice, but fights can be pretty overall the place or last not long enough to make it worth it, or it gets dispelled, so consistantly buy a new skull for 50 gold isnt nothing.

Then how would you buff other races health regenation during fights if you buff one.

You’re opposed to any change to give UD regeneration at T1, but the developers have specifically cited the lack of UD regeneration at T1 as a problem they want to fix. You think they don’t need any more healing, and the developers think you’re wrong. And there’s a clear and logical argument that shows why UD’s lack of regeneration and mobility has warped the game: It has made DK the only valid hero choice and made UD the most linear race with no variety. Anything else is a gimmick cheese build, because DK is UD’s only access to T1 regen, only access to mobility.

You’re also not appreciating what mobility fully means. Its not just a static number, its a matter of unit composition and abilities. UD with normal builds gets stuck with 270 ms fiends and statues and relies upon unholy aura to get anywhere, and has only web and frost nova to slow down enemies in normal play- now reasonable access to cripple in PTR.

Orcs might have 270 ms grunts and a TC for endurance aura to mirror this, but they then build 350 ms raiders and 320 ms wyverns and have scroll of speed, war stomp, ensnare, orb of lightning, purge, hex, bloodlust, stasis wards. Orcs can run around with 400 ms while the UD army is stuck immobilized

Human has slow, and slow and more slow because sorceresses are what make them function. But besides that, 400 ms gyros, 320/350 ms air, 350 ms knights, 300 ms breakers, thunder clap, storm bolt, bash, banish, mass teleport. Sure NE has hunts, but what they really have is 2 points in entangling roots and that negates all considerations of mobility. The slow poison and 350 ms air units are just icing on the KotG cake.

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As long as DK and orb stay in their current state, UD will always be DK first, rush to tier 3, push with orb timing, and win/lose based on the result of that one timing. DK’s single target nuke + lich nova + orb single target right clicking until the end of time is the “racial identity”.

Stop dreaming about strategic diversity, expansions, necro, etc. Just stay with dk/lich/orb/single base or switch race if you don’t like this one strat.

Nothing added will change the fact that DK always get picked, until either DK changes… or orb changes to synergies less with single target hero nukes.