PTR balance feedback (long post)

Hello there!

After trying out the PTR balance patch extensively in online mode, I will give some feedback. Its in the same order as patchnotes for easy comparison.

This spell needs a damage cap! Also the radius should NOT increase with level! Most spells in this game have either a damage cap or can only effect X amounts of units. But not for Thunderclap. The spell is still way too powerful. Nerf its radius to the same amount each level and add a damage cap.

The stun duration is still a huge problem. The stun duration should get nerfed to 3/3.5/4 seconds. Keep in mind that often times this spell is paired with lightning shield, which adds 20 damage per second, so up to 100 guaranteed damage on multiple units along with its damage effect! The range on this spell is also huge, so a stun duration reduction is needed.

A smart change which gives the spell utility even against Dispel. Good change!

Tranqulity is one of the few out-of combat ultimate abilities. The invulnerability change is reasonable. But whats not reasonable about this spell is its cooldown! Its simply way too short for a spell which heals the entire army. It is usable anytime out of combat. So its cooldown should be much higher. The same goes for Mass Teleport aswell by the way.

A good change. Bears have great utility with Roar + Rejuvenation already, making them one of the most versatile units in the game. We might see them used more now.

However, you will need to cut back on the recent Archer buffs first +15 HP and +33% buff on Marksmanship damage upgrade was too much! Now Elf are playing Mass Tier 1 all game against Orc, and Lawliet is already dominating Humans with Masser Archer, Keeper, Alchemist for armor reduction and Priesttress of the Moon for 2x Orb of Venom focus from Keeper and PoTm. The Alchemist’s armor reducion is still too strong and enables ranged focus fire from Elf too much.
Lawliet has been stomping humans with this strategy for qute some time now and it could become one of the new meta strategies besides Warden against Human. Its poor design to see Elf use mass T1 with Alchemist for focus fire in 2/3 of its non-Mirror matchups. Also we have already seen Elf beat UD with mass archer focus fire, the exact same strategy, even if its less common. This is clearly an issue with the Archer damage + Alchemist armor reduction.

I propose: Revert the change on Marksmanship to +3 damage instead of +4. Reduce the Alchemist’s armor reduction ability on units by 1 on each level.
Also Mountain Giants are awful to micro against once NE has 3 or more. I say it is now time to remove the 2nd taunt effect after they found their place in the meta.

The ultimate is still complete garbage and no one will be using it in any serious game ever. What you need to do is to give the DK and ability that is worth using and not spending mana on Coil or Death Pact.

You argue that the DK is strong, so you say he should have a weak ultimate? This argument is instantly rebuttet! What about all the other heroes which are just as strong, are played all the time and have strong ultimate abilities which can win you the game? Lets name a few of them:

  • Alchemist with Transmute (remember you buffed his ultimate ability even!)
  • Keeper with Tranquility (you buffed this)
  • Mountain King with Avatar
  • Warden with Avatar of Vengeance
  • TC with Resurrection
  • Archmage with Mass Teleport
  • Demonhunter with Metamorphosis
  • Pitlord with Doom
  • Dreadlord with Infernal

Just admit it. There is no consistency in your argument. The DK is a strong hero, but he is also essential to any UD composition because UD units have 0 natural health regeneration off of blight and without the Dagger UD has no way to heal its fighting units on t1. Thats why UD must use the DK to keep its units alive. Give him a proper ultimate ability which doesn’t lose you the fight because you chose to not use Mana on 2 Coils.

A good change! This will help Humans earlygame vs UD.

Now this change was LONG overdue. Hopefully this item is not a trap anymore. It has been the laughing stock of the entire community for more than a year now. It will certainly help with strategies involving something other than Deathknight first, which is greatly appreciated!

Similar with other ultimate changes, this is a smart and good change.

But what about the Firelord rework, Blizzard? We have not forgotten about it. You promised us a full Firelord rework with Reforged release.

You also promised us to fix the Gargoyle AI issue which makes them prioritize attacking ground units over air units, rendering them useless as anti-air if any ground units are around! You must deliver on this bugfix ASAP.

Another great change, which was also long overdue.

Now I have some things which didn’t make it into the patch, but still need to be adressed:

Go a little further with Thunderclap and Stomp changes (see above). Nerf Archers and their effectiveness together with Alchemist (see above). Nerf Alchemist ultimate ability. Nerf its cooldown ,same with Mass Teleport and Tranqulity. These spells should have longer cooldown given its effectiveness. For example in the NE vs Orc matchup, where Elf playes mass T1 all game long, Transmute shuts down the usage of Kodos and Taurens from Orc. So not only does NE play mass T1 all game, Orc is also pushed to not use any high-tier and high cost units, which means the game becomes Grunt/Shaman with maybe 1 Kodo vs Mass Archers and Huntresses. Thats poor design to have an ability which punishes you for using high-Tech units!
In my opinion Devour from Kodos need a 2 second cooldown. Its tough to micro against, and if you manage to dodge this ability, the Orc will simply use it again with 0 cooldown. Especially deadly with stomp.
Tanks need a nerf and/or a complete redesign. This unit is terrible and bad for the game. It doesn’t promote army battles, it promotes boring and non-interactive gameplay.

How about you simply redesign the tank into a unit which can attack other units, has heavy armor and cannot be targeted by spells other than those which hit mechanical units like Carrion swarm. It would be immune to Coil+ Nova, so a help against UD. But it would not be another Spellbreakerwith complete spell immunity. Simply another option of a unit able to withstand spells and a much more interesting unit than what is is now. Just my opinion.

Now Necromancer and Frost Wyrms still need changes.

Frost Wyrm needs to have the Sacrificial pit requirement removed.
They have a similar problem to Taurens: Once they are built, its counters are already on the field. Given the mass powercreep to piercing and ranged damage overall (Flying Machines, Headhunters, Riflemen, Archers, Hipporiders, Batriders) and the nerf to Frost Wyrms, we currently don’t see this unit used at all.
So to make the unit more useful, it needs to have additional attack range. Right now its attack range is 300, which is way too low. If a Frost Wyrm ever moves in to attack, it will instantly get shot down. It needs to have an attack range of 450 (same as the attack range of a Gryphon rider) to be effective.

I propose the following: Increase Frost Wyrm attack range to 375. Add a +75 attack range increase to the Frost Breath upgrade research. Reduce the research cost and research time drastically. This is the same design decision which Taurens received, when they got stomp added as an innate ability and the research provides a stronger version.

Meat Wagons need an HP buff and a turn rate and small maneuverability buff.
To make them more useful together with Necromancers, Exhume corpses should be able to create corpses on the location where Meat Wagons attack. This allows Necromancers to summon skeletons right into the enemy army, just like the Dark Ranger does it with Black arrow, which is very successful.

Necromancers still need a rework. Keep Unholy frenzy unchanged, move it to master tier. Move Cripple to be unlocked immediately. Move Raise Skeleton to Adept tier. Reasoning below:

As with all useful casters, a caster needs to be on the field with a spell that provides immediate value: Purge, Heal, Spirit Link, Slow all fulfill this exact requirement. Raise Skeleton does not. Because for the cost of temple of the dammned, a Necromancer and the supply, you can simply purchase a Rod of Necromancy. The only way they are somewhat useful is to mass them, which creates boring and foreseeable games. Casters should never be a unit which is only effective en masse! This is why Cripple needs to be unlocked first. It needs to be a strong slow effect, between purge and sorceress slow. This spell needs to be cheap enough that its not too easily dispelled. Sadly the last rework had a good idea with Cripple first. But ultimately the slow duration was too low and the mana cost was way too high for a spell so easily dispelled.

Ghouls are still walking exp tomes and they need a buff to survivability. You already buffed Cannibalize, but no one is using Ghouls as actual army units because of crazy powercreep to heroes and ranged units. They die way too easily to anything and are never worth to invest in other than for lumber.

Ghouls need a +2 armor upgrade and +20 to +40 hitpoints to be of any use given the huge buffs to all earlygame units and heroes. The armor is especially needed to synergize with healing effects like Vampiric Aura. Even with this aura, Ghouls are still walking exp tomes. Between Archmage Water Elemental buff, stomp buff, Thunderclap buff, Chain lightning and Wolves buff, Riflemen buff, Huntress buff, Archer buff, Headhunter buff (you see where this is going…) they don’t stand a chance. This isn’t even about buffing Ghouls. This is just about a unit which is a walking exp tome and got turned obsolete because of power creep.

If you manage to read up until this point, thank you very much. I hope you will find this feedback helpful.

3 Likes

You didn’t take about Beastmaster lol. Bottom of the barrel.

I think there are way too many heroes with summons and Firelord shouldn’t be a summon hero.

Oh right. I forgot about him completely. I don’t think he is a bad hero. Just the playstyle which he was used in isn’t played anymore. NE is no longer playing Talons and he was used against Orc for canceling t2 building aswell as destroying burrows on t2, by both Human and Nightelf. Since he only has summons, he depends on your strategy. I expect he will remain niche for now and unless his summons get buffed to absurd levels I don’t expect this to change anytime soon. But nothing can really done about that unless you wanted to give him different skills.

What if he got reworked with Firelord? Thoughts?

I think each race already has enough summon abilities.

The beastmaster has been used extensively in the past, atm its fine if he stays niche. Firelord on the other hand has almost never been used for anything other than tower pushes. And we were promised a Firelord rework by the developers on Reforged release, which we didn’t get. Amongst Profiles, Ladder, Custom Campaigns, the always advertised ability to select hero skins from the campaign in multiplayer (Dreadlords, Crypt Lord models, Paladin models etc.) and the Gargoyle AI fix, which we all did not get on release.

Stuff that has almost never been used needs to get changed now, though. Like Crypt Lord, Necromancers, Frost Wyrms.

I think frosties should be reworked instead of just buffed. They are too powerful in lower mmr play and too weak in professional play. The game needs both progamers and an audience, and if the game is not in touch with both, you get separated communities and a dead game. Also archers should get a further 15 hp buff imo. So many years where Archers have been 3 hit by blademasters and comboed by chain lightning + wave and just instadead. Even a 2 spell combo at spell level 2 should not kill 7 units in one go. That’s too powerful. If it forces out a healing scroll then that is much better. I get that it’s a counter to archers, but no counter should be that instant and repeatable. Cast spells–> take mana pot, disengage for a couple of seconds --> repeat.

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Archers don’t need further buffs at all. They already have Elune’s grace which reduces magic damage from spells. Thats not listed anywhere, but you can test it yourself. And they already received +15 HP and Marksmanship was buffed aswell by 33%. We already see Mass Archer played against Orc and with lots of success against Human (see Lawliet for example). Neytpoh also played it recently against ToD, and ToD admitted it seems quite difficult to play against once the Mass Archers are protected by multiple Mountain Giants and Alchemist for heal + armor reduction.

Suggestion a buff on a unit thats already dominant in the game, one of the best 2 supply units in the game thats already shutting down its counter if massed (Ghouls, Abominations, Grunts, Footmen) must not get buffed further. How do you think the community would react if you were to propose a buff on Crypt Fiends?

Frost Wyrms are not powerful at all on any mmr. What you are talking about has nothing to do with the Frost Wyrm. People on low mmr think they lose because of a Frost Wyrm, but instead they lost because they made tons of mistakes. If you think you lose to a Frost Wyrm, then you fail to analyze the game.

Here is as tip for you: If you see 1 Frost Wyrm, that means your opponent could have made 2-3 more Fiends. And 2-3 more Fiends played properly with a Lich is much more dangerous than 1 Frost Wyrm. Counters to Frost Wyrm are abundant in the game. Gyrocopters, Dragonhawk Riders, Riflemen. Batriders who give Orc a huge exp advantage. You can even go so far as to combine Batriders with Alchemist to reduce the armor on Frost Wyrms and allow Batriders to deal more damage with their explosion attack. This has already been played by pro players in the past if the UD decides to use Frost Wyrms. And the Frost Wyrm player got destroyed because Orc is getting free levels from killing Frost Wyrms over and over. No need to talk about Nightelf as they have more than enough piercing damage and potent anti-air.

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Currently I think frost wyrms need re-adjustment.

Lower their stats but lower build time and cost.

Make frost wyrm building buildable without without sacrifical pit.

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disagree with almost everything you said and its pretty clear you don’t understand the solo’s current meta so i hope no one takes your post seriously