Please do not change the original Lore!

General Discussion
142

Not particularly what demons hunters do, despite what they stablished during legion. illidan was kiljaedens puppet during warcraft 3,all he did during frozen throne was under direct command of a démon.

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143

With the exception of course of taking the black temple

144

They only followed Sylvanas because they were lost… they didn’t know what to do as they didn’t have the will to do anything themselves. Only Sylvanas had any willpower so they latched onto her. They just did what she willed to do but they clearly didn’t want to live as an undead for any longer.

Illidan wasn’t Kil’jaeden’s puppet in ROC. He only joined Kil’jaeden after he was banished from the forests. He had no other cause to fight for and Kil’jaeden gave him one. You have to remember that Illidan wasn’t just a demonhunter anymore, he had become a fully fledged demon thanks to the skull of gul’dan’s power. When he was banished, his priorities changed and he realized that as a demon, he could grow stronger and thus he became a renegade demon who maintained his title as demon hunter by fighting magtheridon like you said.

145

That’s the reason I especifically said during frozen throne on illidan’s matter, whatever reason he had, he was scared of kiljaeden and did all under his command, you can’t deny this, after his fail attempt to destroy the world pillars in order to destroy the throne, he hid from kiljaeden, that’s the reason he takes the black temple… This is all stated by the character… And don’t get me wrong… I think illidan is a very cool character for what he was… I’m tired of unidimensional characters like anduin that only do good and have no darkside… And hated how he was turned in also one of those characters during legion… As you said he was capable of doing good and bad…

On sylvanas you can’t say much, don’t try to say she had will over them like the lich king cause this is not the case… They allied with by their own will… Thats the reason only banshees remain with her after their liberation from the lich king…

146

How clear was it for you? I believe sylvanas was the only one from them who actually stated she was tormented and she hated her state… But the other undead never really had a dialog during frozen throne…
And btw how she was portrayed during this time, just as a banshee they couldn’t just die… These are spirits bound to the living world, I think he most famous quote “what are we if not slaves to this torment” refers to the fact she can not just simply rest in peace…

And again she took Lordaeron because they attacked her first… And later she used this place as a home to their forsaken.

147

“My death awaits”
“Let this torment end!!!”

Pretty sure this is what they say in game…

148

Exactly… Sylvanas as the original banshee also said this… If they could have simply done it, they would, but that’s not the case… Even in her short novel where she commits suicide… They state this could only be done in the saronite spikes…that were able to crush her body… Btw another plot hole after she gets killed so easily later on… Or some bull*** like that

149

Thing about that novel that is stupid is the fact that the novel was written post WOW. By that time the Argent Dawn were around… they had paladins and priests. If you want to die, just pop over to Light’s hope chapel and have the paladins there “purify” you, it’s literally the best way to die… lol.

Heck WOW also has Illidan get his scars removed by a Naaru… nearly at least which proved that it was possible… as ridiculous as that is.

150

Hey man, no one more agreed than me that wow lore sucks… And is super inconsistent… This is the reason I don’t want their retcons inconsistencies past down to warcraft 3…
But as I’m telling you… Nothing she directly did in warcraft 3 could be stated as evil

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151

Maybe we interpret things differently… I see what Varimathras said made sense “You’re becoming more like one of us”

That’s why he joined her. Varimathras wasn’t afraid of death, dreadlords are fearless. He just saw an opportunity working with Sylvanas because he could sense that she was capable of great evils… someone worth tagging along with.

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152

That’s 100% wow speaking there, he was totally afraid of dying, to the point he killed another nathrezim something that was forbidden, in order to gain sylvanas trust and not get killed… And this is the truth in warcraft 3,if u want to add wow lore… This make even less sense… By the fact he ended up betraying her… That without including any future retcon

153

I don’t know how that’s WOW speaking. Varimathras is “always on the winning side”. That’s why he did what he did. He even goes as far as to say “I’ll take my chances with her”.

154

Exactly winning implies losing… If he wasnt afraid of death, he wouldn’t have allied with her… As sylvanas stated “just like a démon you’d sell your brethren just to save your own skin” and that’s the truth in warcraft 3…

155

Balnazzar didn’t fear death he just said “You wouldn’t dare!!!”

Varimathras didn’t fear death either, he just wanted to be on the same side as Sylvanas. Balnazzar said that he didn’t trust her, in responce, Varimathras vouched for her.

It’s pretty clear that Varimathras saw that Sylvanas has more potential than the other dreadlords because let’s be honest, they were all abandoned by Archimonde who was killed at hyjal… not saying that they weren’t capable of anything, rather Varimathras saw greater potential.

If Varimathras was scared of Sylvanas, he wouldn’t have made fun of her after she chose to ally with Garithos by saying “You’re becomming more like one of us with every passing day milady”.

He also said before that “come now, you have no intention of giving them their lands back” which goes to show that Varimathras knew that Sylvanas didn’t care for the humans and he was trying to goad her into claiming it for herself, even though she was already hell-bent on it…

Varimathras knew Sylvanas was driven by vengeance and could put her to good use so that he could stop Arthas and claim all the credit for himself, currying favor with the other lords of the legion. Joining with her was just part of his plan hence why he and Balnazzar have a slight disagreement in their meeting since Balnazzar didn’t trust her because “her heart is still elven, she will never side with us” which is why Varimathras acted by himself. If they really wanted to punish Sylvanas, all three of them would have mounted their forces and attacked her.

But Balnazzar was not interested, Varimathras only attacked her to bait her into getting on her side.

Dreadlords are not inherently loyal to one another… however Varimathras hesitated when Sylvanas told him to kill Balnazzar because it was against the creed… and that creed exists to force the dreadlords to work together. Varimathras made a tough decision there, if he was afraid he would have done it immediately but ultimately he realized that he had already betrayed Balnazzar and that letting him live would compromize everything… he put all his chips down on Sylvanas so he was willing to betray Balnazzar.

If Varimathras wanted to, he could have teamed up with Balnazzar at the last minute and murder both Garithos and Sylvanas. They were demons and even though Balnazzar was weakened, he would have Varimathras to help him out so the two could have easily outmatched a couple of mortals.

Dreadlords may be physically weak for demons but compared with mortals they are pretty physically strong it takes a lot of mortals to bring down a Dreadlord. Illidan had to use the skull of gul’dan to defeat Tichondrius… if you attack him without the skull of gul’dan, he is invincible. Arthas used frostmorne to kill Mal’ganis. Sure Anetheron died but he fought against 3 massive armies, armies that were much bigger than Sylvanas’ army.

156

All you mentioned are only conjectures… None of this is actually stated in warcraft… What was actually stated is that he was afraid of dying and sold out his brothers… I don’t know where you got all that information from… Even in his tone when he faces sylvanas he is almost begging… And again if they were true perhaps he could do that, but he wouldn’t have dared to kill his brother, or betray sylvanas… It makes no sense… Because if there was a chance he could die and be punished for killing balnazar, would have only bound her more to sylvanas strategically speaking…

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157

That’s what she assumed. Varimathras clearly wanted to side with her, you can tell by the dialogue in the discussion with his brothers before chapter 2 of legacy of the damned.

If dreadlords were scared of death, why wouldn’t Balnazzar surrender and join Sylvanas? He just said “You wouldn’t dare!!” and died.

Varimathras clearly had an agenda, it’s pretty obvious.

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158

Because not all of them are the same character, balnazar leader of those 3 was not going to be sylvanas puppet… Also I think its more than clear that sylvanas wouldn’t have let him live… Why even bother to beg?
Dreadlords in warcraft 3 were not as crafty as you think… Some months after archimodes fall they were still in Lordaerons serving the legion… It is only Arthas that brought it to them that the legion had fallen.

159

I guess if there’s this much debate about the lore they should go ahead with retcons so that way there’s no grey areas or questions left unanswered.

:joy::ok_hand:

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160

He and I are speaking of the exact same lore… When it comes to warcraft 3 only different perspectives and points of views, blizzards puppy

162

That’s not necessarily true… Kil’jaeden was still there. Plus how do you expect information to magically travel across the great sea so quickly?

Plus how was Varimathras Sylvanas’ puppet? He clearly had a will of his own, he even spoke out that he wanted to join her. If Varimathras wanted to, he could have betrayed her during the fight against Balnazzar/detheroc at any moment, joining with his brothers to strike her down… but he didn’t, he stayed loyal.