ya lets make it so you 100% have to go am and footys every game… yayyyy thats so fun.
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am footy is an opening to a game with more advanced strategies later on… pala rifle is the same unit, the whole game long, on every map, in every matchup.
why is this forum filled with noobs that think their opinion matters im sure idk 
Pala rifle is overbuffed and the biggest issue with that is that its a low skilled ‘strategy’ that goes against the actual legacy design of wc3, or any strategy game for that matter, which is about countering your opponent with information gained from scouting. Pala rifle is used by people who rather spend their time performing the same build in every game, completely defeating the point of a strategy game.
This balance change (along with a bunch of other, similar, t1 & t2 buff changes) makes the game far less interesting and far less rewarding for the higher skilled players.
And it rewards people who are either unable or unwilling to put the proper amount of effort into learning&performing their games.
In other words: its a design aimed to cater to the lower skilled players that were expected to return to the game because of the ‘remaster’. That didnt happen and now we, the veterans, are left with a dumbed down bastardized wc3.
Couple these types of balance changes together with a ‘ladida’ type of 0sec searchtime-matchmaking and there really is no reason left to play. The games are not interesting let alone hype. it is truly a dead game, the 1000 or so slop-games per day being played on bnet dont count as much as even 1 quality game would.
it’s not a low skill strategy, it’s a strategy used by low skill players. The strategy itself still requires the core skills any player needs to do well. Frankly with the limited variety of tools available in the opening minutes, there’s only so much variance in the amount of skill required to execute any early game strategy.
As I illustrated in multiple posts above, this strategy is not carrying Human at the highest levels of play. It’s only effective by and against lower skilled players. I don’t think anything needs to be changed here, but if there is anything that can be changed, I don’t know what it is. Human is behind the curve in high-level play, so any nerf to this tactic would have to take that into account so that higher-skill games are not made worse than they already are by the nerf to a popular low-level strategy.
This is aside the fact that as others have noted, there are other viable early-game strategies that can work.
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Frost wurms should counter rifles like in direct strike change my mind.
“air units should counter antiair change my mind”
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
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You just need d hawks brother like in the best game direct strike.
The existence of alternative units for some roles does not justify nerfing units to the point where they no longer function.
I’m surprised to see you claiming that Human is weak. Do you even play the game? The Human players who were on the same level as me before have improved by at least 200 MMR. Their win rate isn’t high right now because they’re playing against opponents who are far stronger than them.
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You always mention that the Human win rate is 47%, but have you considered what level the opponents? In this unbalanced version, Human players’ ranks have increased and now matched against opponents who would have been impossible to face in the previous version. This is why the rate is only 47%. Since you play the game, why don’t you compare your old rank to your current one?
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Just updating this to reflect is still an issue 
no matter what I do I win 15% against it, and no matter what others do they lose 85% against it.
It’s only effective at low skill levels. If you want to suggest this is an issue, then propose a solution that doesn’t also negatively impact the levels of play where Human is already struggling.
It’s irrelevant. If the opponent differs in skill level substantially, that is going to be the deciding factor more than any strategy. The win rates I refer to come from war3Champions, and the rates are broken down by skill level. The assumption is both players in a game are within the same skill tier- if they’re not, the higher skilled player is just going to stomp the other regardless of strategy. And if you select a single skill tier on War3Champion’s stats, you’re only seeing games where both players are in the same tier.
At the highest levels (i.e. pros), Human has a losing record against 2 of the 3 other races.
At lower levels (i.e. average joe players) it’s basically the opposite.
So as I said above- if you think it’s “unbalanced,” why are humans losing at high skill levels? if this strategy was as unbalanced as you claim, pros would be doing it and they’d be winning. But they’re not, as indicated by the available statistics.
And this thread only contains people crying about something they lost to. So far there’s been basically no proposals for adjustments. Consider the two facts again:
- Human is struggling at high levels of play, especially vs NE and Orc
- Human is doing well at low levels of play, again, mainly vs the same races.
How do you balance this for low levels of play without making the setup more useless at high levels? It is only rational to conclude that this strategy is not overpowered because it either isn’t being used at all at the high level, or it is and it isn’t good enough to give Humans a winning record against all races. If you nerf rifles themselves, it is only going to hurt Human’s ranged/anti-air defense, and if you nerf pally, whom other users have already judged to be inferior to his undead counterpart, the death knight, then he basically becomes useless because healing is the only thing he is good for.
I propose that because Human isn’t doing well at the highest levels of play, the better course of action as far as balance is to strengthen other early game options, rather than nerf rifles or pally. Perhaps boost footies’ HP, damage or their defend ability such that they more strongly counter rifles (which they are supposed to do). This is based on implication everyone here is making that if two players play human and one goes rifles and the other does not (footies are the only other early combat unit after all), the rifles will win.
If you want to reply to this post, reply with a solution, rather than just repeating the same stuff over and over.
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Have you watched professional matches? This strategy has defeated Lyn, Focus, eer0, Happy, Moon etc（Do you know these players?). Now you’re telling me it’s not being used in high level games. What do you consider to be high level matches. Every professional player in Asia (except Human players) is saying that Human is too strong, and here you are claiming it is weak. You must be better than these pros. Replying to you is a waste of my time. Please stop whining and replying to me. Watch the professional players’ matches.
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Yeah, I have. And whether or not this works is going to depend on the race of the opponent. In a mirror match, it doesn’t matter, as both players have the oppertunity to use the same tactics; but at the highest level of play, the win rates do not align with your claims. Grandmaster on W3C is like the top 0.1% of players, which is mainly going to be people like Happy, Moon, and those other people you name. Human has win rates well below the curve against Night Elf and Undead, at the pro level of play.
So the fact that you say pros are actually using it tells me that it’s the best thing Human has got for early game and yet it still isn’t good enough, because vs 2 of the 3 other races, Human’s win rate is well below 50%.
This strat may be strong for people like you and me, but it’s clearly just “OK” at the top level.
As a later addition-
There’s only a handful of options available for the early game as human, especially if you’re trying to end it as fast as possible
-hero harass w/ archmage (or blood mage but thats rare)
-early attack with footies
-early attack with rifles (and pally)
if pro Human players are opting for rifles and winning less than half the time, then if anything needs to be done, I’d say that other tactics, like those with footmen as the main unit, need to be strengthened, rather than rifles/pally needing nerfs. And comparing pally to its undead counterpart, the death knight is better in most ways. so I don’t really see pally itself being the problem.
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Sorry, Captain, to break this to you, but it’s not true. Human Paladin Rifles are the best right now. Pro Human players are using them in 90% of their games at high-level Champion Cups. Even Happy got so mad that he played a game as Human with Paladin Rifles against an Undead player just to show how overpowered they are.
And have you seen the games between Happy and Fortitude? Fortitude doesn’t even have micro close to Happy’s, but the Paladin + Rifles win every battle against Happy’s Death Knight. So regarding what you’re saying, Captain, sorry, but you’re wrong about Paladin + Rifles right now.
Paladin + Rifles is the most overpowered and simplest playstyle.
And here you can see the video where Fortitude plays Undead and Happy plays Human. The game ends very quickly because, in reality, Happy has better micro, but Humans are overpowered right now—especially Paladin and Rifles.
You can also search for the original games where Happy faces Fortitude as their original races, and Fortitude wins every battle with Paladin + Rifles. Happy has the best micro and undoubtedly one of the highest APMs, but Humans have been overpowered for a while now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9XuqeT8UA video happy(hu) vs Fortidude(undead)
In the games before the grand final, you can see how Happy lost to Fortitude’s Paladin + Rifles strategy.
So in the grand final, Happy switched to Crypt Lord as his hero—maybe to see if he had a chance against that strategy or to make Fortitude adjust his playstyle a bit. I don’t know exactly why Happy made the switch, but he knew from the earlier matches that he had zero chance. He had already lost 3-0 to Fortitude
But check for your self ^^
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I’m not a moderator and I can’t delete anything. Nice try though. I also don’t think a moderator would get a two week ban for making threats.
Maybe they are. But Sorry, Sprenter, to break this to you, but “the best” clearly isn’t good enough if Humans have such a poor win rate against most races at the pro level. Which has been my point this entire time.
And that being the case, what is needed, if anything, is a buff to other things, not a nerf to things relating to this strategy.
But despite all this back and forth, with me repeatedly pointing out Human’s poor win rates in high level play and you all ignoring that to claim its the best thing ever and must be nerfed, no one has yet proposed what exactly needs to be done. If you’re so sure this is so broken, how come you have no ideas on adjustments?
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I said that Rifle Paladin is just the most common tactics that beginners can learn.
Does not mean is unbeatable or something. It can be easy countered by all races, I explained each how should counter in previous message, the one deleted!
So in conclusion Learn the game, try to improve!
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-1 armor for rifles fixes this, the reason they pick pala is for the armor aura, they shouldn’t be naturally tanky and then even tankier with paladin devotion aura, -1 armor
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Maybe its just the bad tier games I find myself in, but most of the pallys I see, devotion aura is the third skill- people go heal and shield first from what I’ve seen. It’s not affecting the early-mid game where palarifle is at its best. I suppose some might just take one level of shield and then take aura, but that still doesnt happen til level 5.
This is true. In light (pun intended) of the games this week, it’s not even debatable that this strat is broken. Starbuck beat Happy 4-1, Lawliet beat Lyn 2-1 (with offrace paladin) and Starbuck also beating 120 by 3-0. Just Nerf it before more people leave the game. Everyone knows It’s broken, yet nothing is done about it. Blizzard can just revert the Pala aura and Nerf siphon mana a bit and problem solved.
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it is absolutely debatable, because even this “broken” strategy doesn’t win 50% at the top levels of play.
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