Nerf Paladin + Riflemen: This Strat Is Ruining the Game

General Discussion
21

You are conflating two things that aren’t related. This is about having enough data to come to an informed conclusion. This isn’t even about “testing” anything.

I didn’t fail to address your point, you don’t have a point.

You yourself have argued that everyone is doing it. Let’s just pretend that’s true for a moment:

We already have data from thousands and thousands of games that says Humans have a low win rate right now. If “everyone” is doing Pala Rifle, and Humans are winning 47% of their games, that tells me that, if we are to assume that pala rifle is human’s best opening strategy, that “best” strategy isn’t good enough for a positive win rate for the race.

Human is weak right now. Period. Nerfing their most popular opening strategy because you don’t like it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, because the data does not back up your conclusion.

Other people besides me assumed you were a troll right off the bat. Why is that? Because Human isn’t performing well enough for your argument to make any kind of sense. If you truly don’t think you’re trolling, then it’s time you accepted that you just need to get better at the game and stop crying about strats that beat you and assuming that they are the problem instead of you.

Considering how unpopular I am on this forum, if even the rest of the forum thinks you’re a troll, and I think you’re a troll, you probably are one. /thread.

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23

Banshee never mentioned? Nerf their curse and antimagic-shell

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25

Because of defend and easy expo Human counters palarifle easily. You’re a clown my good sir.

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26

Pala riffle is not balanced correctly I agree it should get slight buffs like dmg on paladin or faster riffle building time. On the other hand you got completely OP archmage with insane dmg and very strong elementals. Also there are footies that counter 50% of units. My conclusion is buff pala riffle and nerf AM footies.

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27

who hurt you?

28

I like how people see one strategy winning some games and then instantly want to remove it. Man how long this is going on? 2 weeks? Give time for pro players to find solution. If something looks strong it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerf instantly - Kotg patch was there for like a 1 year…

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29

Given the win rate of Human at high levels of play I don’t think pro players are relying on this strategy.

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30

This strat has been an absolute pain for years, it has only become popular in recents months. Tell me, what is your winrate, and what is your winrate vs human again? :slight_smile:

31

Dude, my winrate vs HU is bad not becouse off micro, but no expeirence with AM footy. Strat is popular now on the hight lvls, yes on lower it is longer, but people on lower lvls don’t try to adjust properly. They always copy proplayers. When pro players will not find the solution to balace it, then nerf is needed. So far strat is strong in 1 way - mid game fights. If you know how to avoid it then problem solve. Trust me, there is plenty off weak points in this strat that can be use to completly dominate pala rifle player.

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32

Utter hogwash. Players have been rushing riflemen with pallies for as long as they’ve existed. The only other opening strategy is footmen, or some combination of the two so even if everything is 100% perfectly balance, the odds are going to be like 1/3 that someone goes with it- so you’d still see it all the time.

And in human mirror matches, the best counter to rifles is footies.

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33

This is not an argument, you just aim to discredit Lemes with spurious claims about their skill level not being enough to have a valid opinion on this. You’re just hurting your own cause with this.

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34

It exactly goes to the core of my argument, which I’ve explained to captainjackas in post no 20 in this thread.

35

Before asking this question, have you figured out whether you’re qualified to ask it? What’s your MMR? Why can others have an 80% win rate while you can’t? If your win rate isn’t high, then it means there’s still a lot of room for improvement on your part before blaming the game’s balance.

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36

pala rifle buff while overpowered and boring is just an answer to other overbuffed aspects of wc3. it started a few years back with kotg overbuff, then hh overbuff, reinforced defense buff, then more buffs all over the place which now eventually has landed us in pala rifle low iq gamespammer HELL. yes rifles should be nerfed but then again a lot of things have to be.

if youre looking for som1 to blame head on over to TTV and see the top influencers 24/7 enabling/congratulating blizz on their amazing reforged ‘accomplishment’. they dont listen to people on this forum this is just where youre (semi)allowed to vent. they only listen to their chosen few shills who are incredibly weak minded and dishonest people

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37

until coil/nova is nerfed i believe this should still exist in the game.

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38

I can have an opinion on the statistics without being a top 0.1% player. Also, I play random. I both suffer and dominate at the hand of this strategy.

39

You absolutely can, but that doesn’t make you right.

the data does not support your opinion. Opinions aren’t facts but they can certainly still be wrong. :slight_smile:

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41

It requires skill to execute the strategy well, it only works “braindead” if the opponent is also “braindead.”

You are just making up “facts” on the spot. The easily available win rate data does not support your supposition.

Thousands of people playing thousands of games have proven you wrong. if “everyone” is doing it, why does Human have a losing record above the lowest levels of play? If anything, the best conclusion one can reach from that is this strategy only works at the lowest levels of play.

At the highest levels of play on W3C (which is where the best players gather), human has a sub 50% win rate vs orc (47.6%), NE (48.5%) and random (44.7%). They are only doing well against undead right now, with just under 51% there.

https://imgur.com/ZbggybT

At lower levels of play, Human does have an edge, with positive win rates in most cases. Thus, this could be an example of balance that is fine for pros but negatively impacts average players. But what this tells me is that pros either do not use this strat or they do but it simply doesn’t hold up against pros of NE or Orc.

I’d be open to hearing about tweaks that would improve the average player experience withbout hurting Human at the top levels, because the race is clearly struggling in the hands of pro players, while doing fine for people like you and me.

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43

This isn’t a problem. What you don’t seem to understand is that if a particular strategy is especially broken, players will hear about it and that strategy will be used more than other strategies.

The data of win rates by race is the data that matters. If rifledin is the dominant strategy, that is going to be reflected in the race’s win rate, because overpowered strategies will be leveraged by more players until they are nerfed.

The point is, thus, that if rifledin was that strong and everyone was using it, Humans shouldn’t have a 47% win rate. If it was as overpowered as you say, humans would have a win rate OVER 50% which would indicate that something needs to be nerfed.

You are basically trying to tell me that racial win rates aren’t valid becuase there exist multiple strategies. This argument is flawed- Especially at the pro level, players are going to do whatever it takes to win. Therefore, most pro players would use the rifledin strategy if it was as overpowered as the people in this thread suggest. But that doesn’t appear to be the case.

When you look at the racial win rates, especially at the pro level, those win rates are going to reflect the most optimal strategy being used a vast majority of the time. We can only conclude one of two things:

  1. either rifledin is the most optimal strategy and it still isn’t good enough (except maybe against undead)
    OR
  2. Pros aren’t using the most optimal strategies.

You are basically arguing for option 2), which is not a very reasonable conclusion to reach given the assumption that pro players are more skilled than you or me.

THAT ASIDE:

Human has higher win rates at lower skill levels. What this tells me is that rifledin is more effective at lower skill levels than higher ones. Again, if it was effective at high levels, pro human players would be using it exclusively and they would be batting better than 50%.

There could be a balance issue here, but one that only affects lower levels of play. Given that, postulate what you would adjust to make this tactic less effective at a low skill level without also making rifles or pally useless at high skill levels.

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46

what’s even funnier is that’s exactly what I said yet you seem to be arguing against it…

Yes, I play the game, Yes I use rifles too. Funny enough, it isn’t the miracle strat you’re framing it to be.

As I’ve said counteless times before, if it was the godly amazing strat you’re framing it to be, Humans would not have a high rank win rate of 47%. If “everyone” is using it, and humans can only manage 47% against two of the other three races, then it can only mean human is underpowered, not overpowered. The strategy you guys are all arguing is the be all end all human strat, is not able to bat 50% at skilled levels of play.

You clearly don’t read lol. I don’t know how any of you can complain about this with a straight face when the stats don’t support it :rofl:

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