Make wyrms more usable in 1x1

General Discussion
1

Hi there. This just a plea to Blizzard developers to make Wyrm more usable in 1vs1 games, at least in one of the match-ups.

Here are a couple of thoughts:
(1) The gameplay I am talking about is not about massing Wyrms, it is about adding 2-3 Wyrms to your army to make it stronger. So to make this idea work, we need to consider only 1 Boneyard builds (otherwise too expensive).

(2) To have a playable unit: reduce wyrm’s buildtime to 60 sec. (I think in a dynamic RTS all units should spawn in at most 1 minute). Reduce wyrm’s food to 6. To compensate, reduce its hp, damage, and price. It should not be looking as an ultimate air unit, which in reality is useless and expensive.

(3) Think if Freezing Breath needs a tweak or reduction in price (-25 wood to begin with). Maybe wyrms will benefit from other ability that players could research in the Boneyard.

(4) Sacrificial Pit looks like an undeveloped branch of UD’s development that few players are using. You can make it 25 wood cheaper. Another possibility is to create new units/upgrades/options for UD players to be available once they build the pit.

Looking forward to playing WC3 Reforged.

6 Likes
2

Wyrms are hardly used anymore. They got a massive nerf when they were already only used vs Nightelf. All 3 races got huge buffs to piercing damage and everything that counters Wyrms. Headhunters, Riflemen, Gyrokopters, Archers. Counters like Troll Batriders exist already for Orc.

Wyrms take too long to build. They take too long to unlock, sacrificial pit should not be a tech requirement, it makes no sense anyway unlike the Ancient of Wind for Nightelfs.

Wyrms need to be worth using again and not to have all their counters buffed. They cannot compete with Gryphons or Chimeras. They have very poor range:
300 range vs 450 range of a Gryphon or a Chimera. Their range should be increased. Frost Breath is not worth researching, give it a new effect that does something in the fight and not against buildings.

If Wyrms had proper range and wouldn’t take an eternity to get, you might get to use them vs Humans which are all abusing Knights vs Fiends lategame.

Then again, Human lategame got such massive buffs that its almost impossible for any race to beat it if Humans gets high Hero levels. Just look at the recent matches by TH000 vs Moon, even TH000 admits the game is not fair anymore and is absurdly in favour of Human atm.

3 Likes
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I would be for this change, because Wyrms are a major part of the reason why Undead do not have many other means of Siege. Outside of Meatwagons, the Wyrm is supposed to be the definitive building killer with its ice-breath, but since it’s so easily countered and rarely used, UD has to rely on other means.

I think the timing is a huge issue, and maybe doing what they did for Tauren Totem and pushing the Boneyard to tier 2 while still requiring T3 for Wyrms might help. I wouldn’t add range though, since that has very bad effects to team games. Mass wyrms with greater range could take out threats before they reach them.

7 Likes
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theres also another dimension to wyrms that make them really hard to play.

the lack of dispel - the inherent problem of undead. not only do other races have pretty good and cheap anti air (or magic immune) units, but wyrms are also extremely weak vs hex, polymorph, and any sorts of other disables, since you cannot afford to go wyrms AND destroyers. not only are destroyers really expensive, too, are a wholly different tech path but they also get countered by anti air and you need at least 3 to keep your wyrms “magic free” due to the cooldown. this adds up to ALOT of supply. 3 wyrms are 21 supply already, 3 destroyers are 15 - thats 36 supply on top of a 40-50 supply tri hero fiend army. and now you face 80 supply of mass fairy dragons or dryads. wyd? kill half your now utterly useless army of high end units to free up supply?

orc always has spirit walkers at hand for taurens, nightelf gets dryads in a pack of 3 (theyre so cheap), and human mostly goes for arcane sanctums anyway - but human also plays alot of expo, so the issue is reduced further. or just shackle the wyrms and ignore the no-mana destroyers.

undead however rarely plays expo, because undead t2 is extremely weak and you dont want to be stuck there. the tech path to wyrms is really expensive in lumber and time and at this point you can just mass destroyers, which is what undeads do.

wyrms need to be more accessible and destroyers must be reworked. destroyers are still the superior heavy air unit. but undead needs usable wyrms for heavy air and more affordable dispel.

3 Likes
5

I know this is somewhat drastic but I feel like heroes should have “more” interaction with your units, for example if you get a dreadlord ghouls get a base extra 20 hp or something like that, wyrms cost 1 or 2 less food (or they already spawn with frost breath) with lich, nerubians spawn 2 smaller nerubian undead units on death with crypt lord and so on.

I feel like heroes giving innate bonus to units could be a cool “interaction” that players would need to think about before choosing a specific unit, maybe make death knight be something like skeletons get X percent extra resistance towards dispel and so on.

All races could have something like this.

Orcs:

Blademaster gives grunts extra 1 base HP regen per second or something like that, shadow hunter gives headhunters/troll berserks extra 50 range, tauren chieftain makes taurens cost 50 gold/50 wood less, far seer makes horde casters (not heroes) have 50/75 more base mana.

Humans:
Paladin: gives knights resistance towards disease, mountain king gives footmen 15% base resistance towards ranged attacks, archmage allows your workers to collect resources 5% faster, bloodmage gives priests 10% faster healing speed.

Elves:
Priestess would give archers a bonus, maybe an arrow (archers would have something like 10-15 mana, meaning 3 arrows thrown max), warden would give huntresses a boost in MS, Keeper would give bears extra HP or mana, Demon Hunter would give stone giants a 1 food reduction…

All of these are examples of things that heroes could change in a race’s army, maybe have the boost be based on only your first hero (or have all three affect your race).

Tavern heroes would do either generic minor boosts or buff them in a way that makes sense for them to be situational only (when you don’t think you’re going to need a specific racial buff).

3 Likes
6

lmao what a ridiculous suggestion

1 Like
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it wasn’t a suggestion I was just giving examples cause I didn’t know what race specific thing archmage could do, maybe have that be for the goblin alchemist or something since it’s a “neutral” buff

2 Likes
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sug·gest verb

  1. put forward for consideration.

So if it wasnt a suggestion, we shouldnt consider your example at all

con·sid·er verb

  1. think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision.

it doesnt matter what hero its for, your “example” is horribly unbalanced. All this would do is allow humans to expand even faster and then tech even faster. People already complain human is too strong lmao

1 Like
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There needs to be a genuine list (maybe i edit my 1.32 patch wishlist) for serious requests the community agrees on.

I think this prob fits the bill. Aswell as Crypt Lord being weak etc. and DK overpowered with ability choices and their power.

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Im sorry to say but if they made the wyrms the ultimate air unit they better increase its armor. Then it Frost Wyrms were tanky this stuff would start making sense because the would destroy on mass except vs troll bats.

Or yeah just reduce cost and spawn time. Freezing breath is trash maybe it should provide slow or attack speed debuff.

1 Like
11

“Doesn’t matter what hero it is”, what?

First of all, my POST was a suggestion not that SPECIFIC example, an example is NOT a suggestion, don’t try to correct me if you can’t actually read an entire post (I said in my post that those were NOT suggestions, they were just EXAMPLES).

ALSO:
Alchemist is a neutral hero… if you nerf alchemist’s recent offensive buffs/healing somewhat and instead focus him on giving extra income it’s balanced, 5% faster retrieving of gold/lumber is not that unbalanced when you’re trading a hero for it, in any case a player would need to turtle and go for tier 2/3 and use the extra gold there, it’d be more of a cheese strat. In any case that wasn’t even a suggestion, it was an example, right now all I did was explain how that’s not “broken”.

Btw if you still haven’t understood Neutral hero = any player with any race can get it. :wink:

1 Like
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so your entire post was a suggestion filled with various examples, but you think each individual example is not a suggestion? I think you should go back to school :slight_smile:

doesnt change the fact that its a bad idea and will never be implemented

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No, you’re the one who should go back to school, you can’t even distinguish what a suggestion is from an example.

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ex·am·ple noun

  1. a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.

sug·gest verb

  1. put forward for consideration.

you are right, its not a suggestion cause it should not be considered, you even acknowledged your post was a suggestion so Ill just say none of your examples within your suggestion are worth considering

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You keep spouting the definitions of the two words yet you do not seem to understand what they mean, lmao, back to school you go.

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That’s a great idea for WC4. But not for WC3. And maybe not even great. I’m afraid, it removes the unit from the unit. Units are not units anymore. You see something, and you see it wrong.

In a word - the Rune system from League of LoL. But at the same time, you can know what you see (learn before the game, see a hero - the bonus must be so and so), it’s just unintuitive and very dense in information. Also, if you haven’t seen the hero yet, you calculate on the skellies having no protection and fail. Weird.

By the way, why are Wyrms suddenly not meta anymore? I remember seeing them all the time circa 2014, when Cechi and Lucifer played on Zotac Cups. Especially versus Bears, but against Orcs, too.

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Yes and no, there are already upgrades that are impossible to view until you click on the unit, even some that you can’t view like if the player has researched pulverize or not,how can you not see a hero before you see skellies lol? in any case if you’re fighting skellies without his hero you’re going to kill them probably don’t even need dispell.

I don’t think it’s as “hard to see” as you say it is, a lot of games use systems that are based on talents or runes and they’re not an issue.

BTW: I’m also nearly certain that this wouldn’t get implemented in TFT anyways because of how Blizzard does changes to their RTS games, to sell expansions. But Pete mentioned that we could eventually get new content so maybe in a supposed expansion?

1 Like
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What’s about the team games? An allied hero can grant me his aura, but can’t change my units. Awkward.

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It would actually add variety in team games, often times people go for the same X heroes cause of auras in team games as you said, with a self buff type of thing you could actually end up having use for heroes that often aren’t as picked in team games.

1 Like
20

Actually, I think it would limit strategies because you are building artificial synergy that is predictable.

Some of that already exists in the game, and it makes for predictable strats. Dreadlord first hero? I wonder what units he will make. Surely crypt fiends right?

Synergies are nice but only if it opens up strategies. You need to make sure synergies don’t end up shoehorning those paths too though. Think of Diablo 3 synergies - in theory it opens up to a lot of playstyles, but in reality the meta decides which builds are most effective. If you’re just gonna hand out bonuses for grunts just for having a Blademaster, then it is less incentive to make headhunters or late-game tauren etc.

2 Likes