Make Spirit Walkers a great combat unit

General Discussion
1

Orc has a few problems: No significant magic damage unit, a weakness to casters, bad tech gating of Tauren and a very inflexible and counterable tech build to Tauren. All these problems could be worked out in one swoop if Spirit Walkers had better combat stats to make them an efficient DPS unit. By giving them a significant combat presence, it would give Orcs their magic damage option, while being more resistant to casters (a resistant skin + dispel magic army), allow a smoother transition to Tauren and provide some light anti-air alongside them, and be a less linear heavy melee build that’s so easily countered.

This wouldn’t take much change. Right now Spirit Walkers are just a low tier efficiency in combat stats, with bad damage/armor types. They have 11.14 dps and 500 (620) EHP when upgraded, for 195/35/3. That is 768 EHP x DPS / Food^2. For comparison, fiends have 19.5 dps and 748 EHP for 215/40/3, or 1620 combined. Generally, unarmored and magic damage make for a bad core ranged unit in an army since other ranged have medium armor and piercing damage (75% taken, 150% dealt). So fiends are over 4x as strong in a direct fight.

What walkers could use, is a modest boost to put their combat efficiency on par with other units, while leaving their damage type magic so they’d still be a niche answer to heavy melee or light while useless against spell immune units. Something that could kill a defend footman or bear, but is no replacement for a headhunter against a dryad or destroyer.

Some modest buffs could be;

  • Base attack time from 1.75 to 1.50

  • Damage from 19.5 to 21.5 / 24.5 / 27.5 (with upgrades)

  • HP from 500/560/620 to 525/600/675

  • Attack foreswing from 0.5 to 0.3

  • Armor from 0 to 1/2/3

  • Build time from 38 to 30

Those changes would put Spirit Walkers more on par with a Spellbreaker as a combat-viable pseudo-caster, raising them in combat from 768 combined value to 1623, a solid unit. For comparison, an acolyte is 926, a rifleman 1707, a gryphon rider 2562, a knight 3139.

If they were really to become a powerful unit, giving them medium armor would make them far stronger than the modest upgrades above, allowing them to be far more resilient to heavy air with magic damage or enemy piercing units. But I think that would be too much

2

Also make shades a strong combat unit. Because of my feels, my complete lack of understanding of the game, and reazonz.

3 Likes
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Spellbreaker damage ? 15 ? you too stupid

2 Likes
4

Spellbreakers have 14 (20) + 20 damage, 1.9 BAT, 600 HP, 3 (9) armor. That gives them 7.36 (10.53) + 10.53 dps and 708 (924) EHP. They deal 100/150/100/70/100/100% and to light/medium/heavy/fort/hero/unarmored, and take 150/75/50/0/100/0/100% from normal/pierce/siege/magic/chaos/spells/hero, ultimates besides.

With current stats, Spirit Walkers have 19.5 damage, 1.75 BAT, 500 (620) HP, 0 armor. That gives them 11.14 dps and 500 (620) EHP. They deal 125/75/200/35/50/100% to light/medium/heavy/fort/hero/unarmored, and take 100/150/150/100/100/100/100% from normal/pierce/siege/magic/chaos/spells/hero in physical form, 0/0/0/166/0/166/0% in ethereal form.

Spellbreakers can actually be used as legitimate combat units unlike Spirit Walkers because they actually have good combat stats, proper magic immunity, a powerful secondary effect on their attacks (disabling heroes) and the vastly superior normal damage / medium armor combination.

Spirit Walkers don’t have to be as good as Spellbreakers to be a good complement to an orc army, they could just use some relevant magic damage output

5

It should be noted that there is something of a reason for the horde having such a deficit in the sources of significant-magic-damage department and that’s due to the horde having OTHER sources significant damage.

For instance destroyers can be pretty nasty and everyone likes to gripe about bats…
and kodos/shamans can make for a pretty gnarly combo that can drastically up the damage of any army.
Disclaimer: yes there are dispels that can deal with shammy buffs
That’s not a complete explanation as there are a lot of other examples but the basic Idea here is that a significant source of magic damage may not actually be necessary for the horde which is very likely by design.

1 Like
6

Agreed and make them able to attack when in spirit form. I feel they should change the game completely because I want them to :D… " Ironic not serious dont DO IT BLIZZARD"

Side note stop trying to balance stuff off feels rather then numbers or logic blizzard already screwed this game up enough without moba players helps

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Numbers and logic, like I provided.

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But you keep comparing units with fiends, knights before and know spirit walker. They do totaly different things with totaly different backgrounds.

A spirit walker can also use its etheral form and become unattackable to alot of sources, and receive a huge bonus of 66% to healing wave and healing wards. That is not in your comparison and calculation but … I like your attempt anyway.

3 Likes
9

A spirit walker can become partially immune in the same way a fiend or archer can be partially immune. Even if you micro it as a way to save low hp units, it has counterplay in that they die easily to hero spells or other casters- like dying to dust at low hp.

Fiends, spellbreakers, mountain giants, headhunters, wyverns, faerie dragons all do different things, with some overlap. Spirit Walkers fill the intended role of a support unit for Tauren and an anti-caster caster. Its intended that they fill a niche similar to Spellbreakers, Faerie Dragons and Destroyers; they form the basis of orc’s ability to negate enemy casters. What makes spirit walkers bad is that despite being a heavier investment than some of those units, they have no potential in combat. All those combat support units like faerie dragons, destroyers, spellbreakers, raiders, mountain giants- even though they’re not intended as primary combat units, they have competent EHP / DPS. Usually about 2-3x as effective as spirit walkers.

Walkers are an ineffective caster for an ineffective side of the orc tech tree that Blizzard is actively trying to buff to make it see any play at all. Even the niche units like banshees on UD wind up being far better in combat than big dumb tauren swinging lanterns at people.

10

they made all casters bad at in-game combat (dps) because mass casters was the worst meta this game has ever seen, after the Ancients meta in RoC.

so no. don’t make them “a great combat unit”…orc have plenty of those.

1 Like
11

But all casters aren’t bad in combat. Spellbreakers, druids of the talon, druids of the claw, faerie dragons, destroyers are all caster / anti-caster role units that have good combat stats. The only direct spell they cast is spirit link, which isn’t anywhere near the impact of dedicated casters like slow/invisi/polymorph, raise dead/frenzy/cripple, purge/ls/lust. They’re generally orcs anti-caster unit, akin to the breaker/fd/dryad/destro/etc. I don’t think anyone is going to argue that Spirit Link makes a walker a higher impact caster unit than Roar, which provides a 25% buff to your whole army. The only reason anyone gets walkers is to dispel magic, and that’s the same function of a destroyer or spellbreaker. Nobody gets them to support Tauren, because nobody gets Tauren. Which is the problem, eh?

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druids of the claw are melee casters that get absolutely destroyed because they max at their 1 armor. that’s part of the reason elf doesn’t make them til master status is either close, or already researched.

destroyers/spellbreakers/faeries are not casters. they are anti casters. dryad included. they are not even in the same armor type/dmg type as casters.

basically - mass casters were a problem in RoC because they did piercing dmg, and their tier researches upped their dps. so orc and human players were literally massing armies of pure mass casters and nothing else.

they reverted the changes in TFT and made them do magic dmg, and lowered the dps output of these units, specifically for the reason that they wanted them to support armies, not make up the bulk of them.

Spirit walkers are unique because they are the orc “anti caster”, but also their best caster (spirit link is one of if not the best spell in the game).

no. the main reason orc get spirit walkers is to cast spirit link. dispel is necessary to have for all 4 races due to the amount of summoned units in matchups.

but seriously, don’t compare the anti spellcasters to spell casters. they are not the same. casters have unarmored, magic damage, and 3 tiers of training.

1 Like
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Destroyers, spellbreakers and faeries are all units with an anti-caster skill and a resistance to magic. Devour magic, spellsteal/control magic, manaflare- and 3x magic immunity

Spirit Walkers have dispel magic and resistant skin.

Its not even the best orc ability. Ensnare, purge & bloodlust are all higher impact. Devour is its own thing.

LIke druids of the talon? DotT and DotC both break your mold. They are NE’s ‘caster’ units, yet they’re both combat viable. WC3 doesn’t have firm archetypes for units that are exactly mirrored. Just because other races units do one thing, doesn’t mean the 4th race has to do it- they’ve been given different niches for different gameplay reasons. Orc has a very good reason to want a combat-viable magic damage unit and a smooth transition to tauren. The fact that human/undead casters with 3 tiers of training have low attack damage doesn’t mean SWs absolutely need to. The damage outputs of the caster units across the races is wildly variable. Priests have no damage output but have direct combat impact in ehp/dps because of their massive healing. Sorcs have no damage, but are just there to provide game swinging buffs/debuffs. Shamans have decent damage output from LS and bloodlusted attacks, and necromancers, dott, dotc, and banshees are all large damage output casters even if indirect in it.

SWs already break the mold of the other races by existing. HU has 2 trainable casters and 1 anti-caster, NE has two 2 trainable casters/direct combat units and 2 anti-caster/combat units, UD has 2 trainable casters/indirect combat units and 1 anti-caster/combat unit. Orc has 3 trainable ‘casters’, none of them fully realized as combat whether direct or indirect, and no anti-caster/combat unit

14

dude what. i mean is it even worth arguing with you? you literally put that bloodlust is “higher impact” (whatever that means) than spirit link…what. bloodlust is a third tier spell, spirit link isn’t…and fits orc very efficiently.

and no offense, you’re probably not a top 20 ladder player, adn you’re telling me that mass druids of the talon is a viable strategy, i’m saying it isn’t. i’m currently coaching 3 players, and i would never encourage them to mass druids of the talon in any scenario.

spirit walkers are literally decent damage in battle already. no they don’t need to be massed the way you want them to.

i don’t get why you think they’re “damage output” casters… they’re literally chosen for their spells not their damage output. if you want heavy magic damage from the three races that have it, you choose other options, mainly tier 3 heavy air for it.

i think spirit walkers are the most combat-efficient spellcaster in the game. they’re also the most versatile with the ability to shift in and out of ethereal form.

druids of the claw are pretty versatile, but i don’t choose them for roar and rejuv, i choose them to kill rifles. and in every other matchup, i choose mountain giants for durability.

anyway, i’m gonna continue to disagree that we don’t need to touch the spirit walker, or the spirit walker’s damage. like how much damage are you expecting this thing to pump out…

15

They’re not. That’s just a matter of numbers. Spirit walkers have less ehp and dps for their cost than you get from worker units.

Who’s talking about “mass druids of the talon” as a strategy? I haven’t, you just pulled that out of nowhere. Mass DoTT was a strategy that wasn’t uncommon, popularized years ago. If you’ve been playing this game you should already know that.

I said that druids of the talon are combat viable. That doesn’t mean you have to make an army of solely DoTT, it means that you’ve got an anti-air unit with 50 magic damage, 1.75 bat and a -4 armor debuff. Likewise, upgraded bears have 54 damage and 1478 ehp. Thanks to their 9 armor. Not 1.

Again, many casters in this game have significant damage outputs through various means. A shaman has a 20 dps aoe and gives units 40% aspd buffs. A necromancer summons skeletons and drops frenzy. A banshee straight up steals a unit. Bears and dott have transformations to direct combat forms. Having damage come from caster units is nothing new or forbidden.

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lol remember the roc 2v2 mass shaman with necro with no dispel except for the 1 at the shop which was not always present lol.

17

mmm the druids where viable because orc melee where all weak to magic and they just kept the orc heroes floating all game. They where in themselves not great but elemented orc heroes and cost about half as much to cast as to dispel.

18

Well we have to remember Spirit Walkers should never be compared to any other unit or caster and evaluated 1:1. We always have to factor the role they play within their own factions, and how each faction is balanced overall.

So yes, they could increase the damage of Spirit Walkers. But then damage needs to be taken away elsewhere, because that’s basically how the races are balanced. Not on a unit vs unit level, but as a whole from any-and-all top tier meta strats.

If it’s a matter of Spirit Walkers not providing enough DPS, then we have to evaluate what role they actually have within the Orc faction and whether or not they should provide significant DPS for their cost. In short, then answer is no. Their design is purely one of support. They have a strong support buff with Spirit Link, they can raise dead Tauren (including other Spirit Walkers) and they dispel. On top of this they have a mode that takes them completely out of combat. I would say Ethereal mode is the kicker to tell us what type of unit this is meant to be.

Let’s say we make them DPS competant - that means Ethereal mode is the worst designed ability for the Spirit Walker because it makes them lose a significant portion of DPS to the group. But overall, their DPS is not highly significant to the overall composition of the army because what they lack in offensive power, they gain in making the rest of the Orc army tough to kill.

Like others have said elsewhere, cost-wise a Grunt is the roughly the cost of 1.5 footmen, but overall a Grunt is worth way more than that for other factors. They can soak AOE damage, be to survive level 3 single-target spells and with good micro, effectively deny the enemy of ‘easy EXP’. Similarly, a Spirit Walker is not factored in by its ability to deal effective DPS, they are factored by being able to extend the survivability of other potential DPS units by a significant portion. This can not be said of Spellbreakers, who have no abilities that increase the EHP of the rest of the Human army, rather they are meant to be front-line meatshields that allow a player to safely drop AoE’s. Spellbreakers are meant to be used very offensively, thus why they have higher damage and personal survivability than a Spirit Walker would. Spellbreakers are not support units.

19

So yes, they could increase the damage of Spirit Walkers. But then damage needs to be taken away elsewhere, because that’s basically how the races are balanced. Not on a unit vs unit level, but as a whole from any-and-all top tier meta strats.

well not necessarily.

Each unit has an opportunity cost, that you teched to it and produced it instead of other units. If you build 1-2x tauren totems and research 200 gold / 200 lumber / 135 seconds worth of upgrades, you’ve invested a great deal in reaching your spirit walkers that could have otherwise been spent on more grunts or wyverns or raiders or whatever. When blizzard buffs the damage on Tauren themselves like they did this past patch, it doesn’t require a damage nerf to other units- because nobody was using Tauren anyway. And even if they started using Tauren, it comes at the opportunity cost of other builds.

Ideally you’d want to have a variety of viable build orders, not one optimal one for all scenarios, and having Spirit Walkers be a competent damage unit would be one way to give a less linear and hard countered strategy than current Tauren build orders. In particular, if those upgrades are gated enough behind research, it means that even if they’re high payoffs, they’re still a heavy investment that you couldn’t easily exploit with a mild splash from other strategies. If you need upgrades for skills, damage, life, armor, etc- then max walkers would be self-reincarnating combat units but non-upgraded walkers would just be spirit link dispensers.

I don’t think ethereal mode is any more anti-synergistic to a damage role than Hide or Burrow or Stone Form. WC3 is filled with a number of micro-reward skills that let you take focused low hp units out of combat, but still provide opportunity for opponent’s to counterplay- using ground dps on a gargoyle or dust on a fiend/archer/hunt or magic damage on a spirit walker.

Blizzard wants to make Tauren and the general tech tree to them a viable build, and in particular has recognized that how late they come online and with such heavy investment is the big problem. They might have actually made that worse with their attempt to fix it, because at least when you build spirit lodges and tauren totems independently to get support casters, you could simultaneously research walker tech and build tauren. Now you can build the totems earlier, but if you want both tauren and walkers you’d need to have 2-3 totems all invested in it and lack support casters- which would mean 4-5+ tech builds if you want casters, 6+ with bestiary support, yeesh. If you could just produce walkers themselves and have a reasonable army until Tier 3 when you transition to heavy melee, and have those walkers shoot down air units or heavy armor- that would alleviate the curve on a tauren build.

But right now, with spirit walkers just being spirit link dispensers with the combat value of a worker unit, they do not carry their weight in direct combat

20

I think a new upgrade for every Spirit lodge unit damage wpuld be great. Shamans could then be nerfed If needed