Pretty broken, corper, hippo, Gargoyle wont work anymore
Only hawk
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What do you do against that slow? Separate things? don’t focus anything?
“We buff wyrms, chims, no one uses it”.
4s: really?
pretty much any other air unit is better on a food-for-food basis, frost wyrms are strong but they’re not efficient.
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No, only hawk could counter forst, and mass talon/corper could try to fight against forst if ud have low level hero, other aa unit all clowns.
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7 copters (food equivalent) kill a frost wyrm easily, I don’t see a problem here.
Sure, 700gold against 385gold, and frost could creep fast or lame economy or focus hero, mass corper is huge clever way 
yeah, and you lose the entire 385 gold while I still have some copters left, so its balanced.
No, u wont have any copters left against dl +dk, btw 7x copters against 1 forst is pure feed, 35x against 5x forst u may have a bit low hp copters left.
If you’re bad,you just need to position them so they don’t all get hit at the same time
funny, aoe against aoe, obviously the one with less unit and stronger individual has the advantage. And human heroes is not as good as ud to support aa. Even u use panda mist.
I made a map with 100 copters vs 14 frost wyrms (98 food) and a garg to make 100 food.
The human side lost 27 copters killing all the enemies. This was without Flak Cannons.
This test only show u are low skill player…
Frost will provide better levels and economy for uds. Copters do not have this function. Moreover, dldk can hit copters and assist ice dragons very well. Am, mk, pal have 0 effect against forst and support corpter.
Who else will produce more than 50 copters and 14 frost? 9 frost are already the upper limit for ud (100unit), and for 80, I used to have 5-6 frost, thats enough. And thats pretty cheap. only need 2k gold
Btw, If you want to do some unit test, you need to do some more practical tests, like 5x frost against 20 copters, ud 1925gold, against hum 2000gold
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This test says absolutely nothing about skill. If I did it skilffully, I’d have lost even less, but I just hotkeyed all the copters and clicked in the general direction of the wyrms.
Those same copters will destroy buildings faster than wyrms do as well. Yes, it does cost more. but frankly, outside of killing ground units the copters are significantly better than worms on a food basis.
Obviously im not suggesting that maxing food in only copters (or wyrms for that matter) is an optimal strat. This is purely comparing these two units, as you argued that wyrms don’t have anti air counters besides hawks.
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- In most cases, hero is important for this game
- If you produce a lot of copters, bats will say thx for feed
- 12 food corpter could kill 50 food hawk/talon
- Against frost, heros are clowns.
So it seems in 4vs4, you can’t counter frost at all.
Frost > heros, Frost > all unit except hawk,corpter, talon
Hero > corpter, bat >>>mass corpter
corpter >>> hawk,talon
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- I never said it wasn’t, again, this is just a direct comparison between two units. But there’s only a few heroes that could really change this outcome considering how lopsided it is in favor of the copters
- I wasn’t aware Undead had bats (???)
- Okay, so you’re basically just reinforcing to me how effective copters are as antiair
- I really am not sure what you’re getting at here. if by “frost” you mean frost wyrms… well yeah, you’re right, that’s why you build antiair units like copters or hawks. Why are you taking on wyrms with just a hero?
Again, bats aren’t part of this equation, they aren’t an undead unit.
It’s hard to believe you’re as good as you claim to be when you make a case like this…
Obviously in a real battle, a competent player is hopefully not just massing one unit type in most cases. but if you’re specifically worrying about frost wyrms, they’re hardly as uncounterable as you suggest, and copters are perfectly capable of dealing with them, if you build enough.
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Thats why I said u never play 4vs4.
If there are orcs on the enemy side, you can’t build a lot of copters, because you can’t expect the orcs on the enemy side to be stupid and never make bat. (Because of BM bat, they are lots of player pick orc in BN)
But, if you play ud, u can mass frost without thinking this patch.
And if there is an mass frost player on the enemy side (In fact, there are lots of such player in BN, mass t3 unit), u gonna have such trouble.
- If u mass corpter,hawk,talon, It is difficult for you to crush other players, and these 3 units are difficult to hit the enemy economy. In BN game, lame/kill Exp is far more effective than defense.
- If you don’t have a lot of units that don’t help the kill enemy economy, it will be difficult to kill single frost even if you have high-level heroes.
- Also, UD has no units to counter frost, all u can do is join frost and mass frost.
Do you know how desperate it is when you face an 80food frost + 12xcorpter? You don’t even dare to let the hero use aoe skills to consume them because as long as your hero get slowed by frost, tp or die.
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4s yesterday 1 hu with many gyros fight my 6 wyrms 2-3 and scroll protection. I attacked ground with my wyrms and only swarm 3 over and over. When the fight ended, my 6 wyrms were still alive, the gyros were gone, and I killed their heroes by stunning them with infernal. Then another hu came with hawks but only 4 and I killed them, finally 1 elf with good stats came with talons and killed my wyrms, my dl was out of mana, but they had needed 3 to stop me and my 3 teammates were 3-1, over.
I should tp and dont fight the NE when i hurt, i lose 6 wyrms xD, but delaying the tp too much when I have killed a lot is a problem i have as player.
I play 4vs4 all the damn time. But it’s not relevant, it applies in all melee modes.
You can’t make your argument work with what if statements. We can concoct all kinds of different scenarios that change the game. As I explained to you, you raised the issue of “is there any counter to frost dragons?” and argued there wasn’t. You can’t say “well what if there’s also orcs/elves/whatever” because then it isn’t really about frost wyrms anymore is it? That’s called a balanced army of different units covering for each other’s weaknesses.
You can’t use other players/races in an argument about whether frost wyrms can be countered. That’s like arguing human spell casters are uncounterable because they have an undead ally using antimagic shell. That’s not a human spellcaster strategy, that’s a human+undead strategy.
It almost sounds like you’re simply speaking of one specific match you had rather than balance in general, yet speaking as if one unit is unbalanced because a diverse army that happens to include that unit beat you. Why was it the frost wyrms that won? Why wasn’t it the bats? the shamans? the siege tanks? the dryads? How can you argue that definitively, it was the frost wyrms and they’re unbalanced even though it was really the support they got from their allies that made the difference? You keep moving the goal posts to make your argument work.
You:“frosts are OP, u cant counter them cept with hawks”
Me: “well, copters counter them”
You:“not if theres an orc with bats!”
Me:“well heres a counter for the bats”
You “You dont play 4v4!”
This can go on forever, until we’ve covered basically every unit in the game.
Your argument is nonsense, and your statement “you dont play 4v4” is not only false, but there is no basis for making that statement.
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And what about wyverns? doesnt work anymore with the nerf? And the scroll speed do anything with the wyrms’ slow?
not really so much change, wyverns is always timing unit, not ultimate unit, no aoe, 570 hp 4food… 
But if you gain an advantage against the human or ne early, it still has a strong period.