Is the lack of responsiveness something core of WC3?

General Discussion
103

Funny you don’t show me your game lobbies.

Yeah Warcraft 3 is still selling like its hot cake.
Lol

104

If you’re a pro, it’s beneficial for you to not have to learn new skills. But, isn’t being able to adapt to changes something that pros should be able to do. They need to adapt to patches and changes in the “meta” after all.

I understand that many don’t want any gameplay skills removed, but that’s different from not wanting them improved.

  • Removing or significantly reducing collision removes skills. Changing from a crude and lore-breaking square into a sensible equal-area circle preserves those skills almost entirely (except you may need to adjust some minor known positions).
  • The UI is changing. Some things are certain to be easier to see. Pros will need to adapt.
  • UUS. Pros will only need to make minor changes as most groups will still be < 13. The UI for < 13 will probably be pretty similar.
  • Many glitches were just fixed in the latest patch. I’m not sure if some were being exploited by pros. If so, pros will need to adapt to those exploits being gone.
  • Any future expansion will likely contain extra units and heroes. Pros will need to learn these.

Arguing, on the pros behalf, for things to stay exactly as they are seems to be almost akin to insulting the pros ability to learn new things.

105

I don’t think anyone here actually believes that maintaining wc3 blocking has to do with protecting experienced players from learning new things, that is just mumbo-jumbo. It’s simply just a core feature that affect the entire gameplay, now some people are for it and some are against it. The conversation just got out of hand. As far as optimizing the pathing and response time, all improvements are of course welcome as long as they don’t affect the core mechanics (atleast that’s what some of us thinks, myself included). There’s plenty of room for improvement.

106

Who decides what a core mechanic is?
Is there a list somewhere?

107

If you ever played the franchise you would know.

1 Like
108

you can’t name the “core” mechanics of the game?
Surely its not because you are afraid that elaborating a vague term like “core mechanic” would suddenly spark a debate on WHAT constitutes a core mechanic and what doesn’t.

109

I will explain this one last time, please try to contemplate the arguments.

By core mechanic we mean features that affects the entire gameplay. A lot of people including myself has already explained why it is a core mechanic. I recommend you read Adûnâi’s post as he summarize it very well.

Changing body blocking will result in having to change the game balance dramatically because heroes will be too hard to kill, games will go on forever, micromanagement will be less in focus because we all of a sudden don’t have to be aware of our units positioning. It will play more like Starcraft where the economic aspect is more important than the micro. Why do you think they chose to use the wc3 engine instead of the sc2 engine? To retain these differences.

3 Likes
110

It is also a feature that has existed throughout all the warcraft games. Just like how the selection cap was intentional, they didn’t use a low selection cap because they had to, it was implemented because it challenges the players micromanagement which is the whole focus of the warcraft franchise.

120

no i really think youre conflating not wanting to change and learn with core mechanics. the unit pathing and hitboxes really should be updated. im an old time fan of wc3, my favorite rts out there, but its a really old game and some things are truly archaic and need to be updated or the game will be a [somewhat] disappointing reskin. the game will still be perfectly competitive if the units dont act like retards getting stuck on air. unit collision will still be a thing and unit blocking will still be a thing if pathing and hitboxes are better. itll be slightly harder, might take 1-2 more units, but, yes please holy crap. the old system is well learned by me, but i will be incredibly thankful for circular hitboxes, being able to push my own units out of the way, and better pathing. hopefully. you are the definition of old dogs cant learn new tricks - ur just being an old fogey dood

1 Like
121

In older games there was a hard-baked minimum input delay to ensure that someone who lived closer to the servers on an old 56k modem wouldn’t have an unfair advantage over players who lived 10 hours away.

Because the dude with the significantly lower latency would always have an incredibly unfair advantage in those situations without it. It’s also part of why units in Warcraft 3 have a back swing as part of their attacks.

That, and you never want to reward whoever is the twitchiest of all the twitch players because that’s less an approachable skill and more something you’re kinda born with. Good game design rewards systems knowledge and skill, not, ‘gotta go fast’ goons.

Turn rates exist so that a specific unit type- assassins specifically- are not utterly broken. Turn speeds afford other unit types some breathing room.

2 Likes
122

I think input delay would just be a bug.

Turn rates, etc. are game features though. Would be nice if we had the ability to turn off turn rates in custom games though. Many modern games that I’m thinking people would make maps for don’t use turn rates.

123

Lots of custom games have turned them off. So it’s not really an issue for customs tbh.

125

This thread reminds me of the Melee VS Brawl “discussions,” back in the day. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, I never once thought the mechanics felt clunky in WC3. That’s just weird. They feel great to me. Its perfect fo the pace of that game style. SC2 is perfect for its style as well. We don’t need WC3 to be like other games, it controls like a dream already.

4 Likes
127

WC3 controls like a dream already? Ok buddy, reported for trolling. That’s enough.

128

Units should respond fast. Are you connected to the closest gateway from where you are? I know there was a patch that reset everyone’s gateway to USWest, so you might be playing there instead of wherever you are.

129

I’m playing against AI, its not lag units are just slow to respond.

130

I don’t think people get the idea of a remaster, it’s not a remake. Yeah, I know they called it reforged because they’re taking liberties with the campaign and patching up the multiplayer, but it is ultimately still a remaster of Warcraft 3.

Yes, the unit delays are a dated feature, but the game is an older game. I remember playing the Starcraft Mass Recall mod for Starcraft 2, which remastered the original campaign and units. I noticed that the goofy unit movements of the original starcraft did make a difference. When all the stats were copied and pasted in Starcraft 2, a lot of units lost their power and a lot of them gained power. Mutalisks, for example, were far more devestating in Mass Recall than the original because the glaive attack was cleaner and the pathing ai was smoother and more responsive. While in the original mutalisks could be a major risk of resoruces and concentrated planning, Mass Recall mutalisks could end a mission easily without breaking a sweat.

The pathing does matter, and changing it will create an impact on the overall game. I get it, it’s not a feature that any modern game would want to implement. But this is not a modern game. This is the preservation of a classic, and as such even the classic mechanics should be preserved.

5 Likes
131

Devs said nothing is set in stone, and as for the multiplayer they are open to anything. The only thing they said is that they were gonna keep the pathing. You are welcome to believe what you wish, however, I will believe that the decisions that they will make regarding the game will be aimed to making money and alienating a new audience with archaic mechanics will not be the way.

132

Oh, don’t get me wrong, what Blizzard does is what Blizzard wants to do. But my whole point is expressing the viewpoint of what Reforged should be.

Keep in mind, if this were a full on remake or a Warcraft 4, I’d agree 100% with y’all. But as what is advertised to be a remaster, I think it should be just that. I feel the same way about talk of remaking vs remastering Warcraft I and II. If they remaster them, I’d keep the games the same (patching bugs and optimizing them, but maintaining core mechanics, even archaic and dated ones). if they remake them, then take whatever liberties you want.

This is an argument of principle. What should Reforged be? A remaster or a remake. From the route they are going it seems to be the former, and as such it should remain the former by principle.

Some of what y’all are asking for is a new game, a Warcraft 4 if you will. If y’all want that, then push those points. I get it, there’s no sign of a Warcraft 4 in sight, but don’t try to turn an old game into a new one just because you want a Warcraft 4.

1 Like
133

I would agree with you if they were to decide to call it remaster. They decided not to call it remaster because it is actually not a remaster, hence, it is more than a graphical update. They were specific about this on the interviews, and said that they learned about making games better the last 15 years and found a lot of missed opportunities with WC3. This is a re-imagination of WC3, it is not as simple as SC remastered.