Inner Fire and Knights need a nerf (seems to have no counters for UD and Elf)

Competitive Multiplayer
1

I just want to point out the stats of Inner Fire and Knights. Hopefully, blizzard sees the ridiculousness of Inner Fire and Knights from just the stats alone.

Inner Fire: 35 mana on 400 mana priest with brilliance aura (basically unlimited spam in a fight).
1 second cooldown for 10% damage bonus and 5 armour.
This is essentially 2 attack upgrade AND 2.5 armour upgrade.

That’s way too much gold/wood that is added to an army at its current state. That’s over 500 gold and lumber that is available instant at tier 3 from just 1 upgrade. These stats need to be less and the mana from the priest has to be more. 35 mana on a 400 mana priest with brilliance aura is just too little. If a spell is tier 3, it should use a lot more mana than its current state.

Knights: Honestly, just look at the DPS + HP + Armour (11 max. Imagine WITH inner fire and devotion aura. It’s practically unkillable late game) + Speed (350 movement speed makes each of these units Ussain Bolt)

Sundering Blades was an upgrade that came out of nowhere when MGs were first overbuffed. Then MGs got nerfed but Sundering Blades stayed. Why. Sundering Blades too then should also be nerfed. Instead of 15%, why not 10%.

Animal War Training: An instant upgrade to 100 more HP on all units. Why so much HP. 985 HP on a unit with 350 movement speed and 11 max armour? Isn’t that a bit too much effective HP in a fight? Especially with the massive bonus damage/armour from inner fire and sundering blades currently?

Cost: 245 gold and 60 wood.
Bears in comparison for Elf is 255 gold and 80 wood.
Bears have max 9 armour while Knights have max 11 armour
Bears have 270 movement speed while Knights have 350 movement speed
Bears have 28~43 base attack while Knights have 30-38 base attack
Bears have 960 HP while Knights have 985 HP.
Bears have 0.6 turn rate while Knights have 0.5 turn rate.
And bears can never have roar or rejuv in a fight as long as either 1 priest or 1 breaker exists so the spells aren’t even useful in a fight (much less the fact that bears just all get slowed to death by 1 clap from HU).
And HU tier 3 to castle is CHEAPER than Elf tier 3 due to recent patch. How does any of this make sense especially when Elf also has to get 2~3 upgrades TO actually get bears while HU gets knights right away AND Elf has to spend gold/wood on 2 Ancient of Lores while HU can spam from its tier 1 barrack.

Currently, once HU stabilizes in tier 3, both undead fiends and elf bears just melt. Why is HU so oppressive in this game. And why does inner fire make any unit practically unkillable in this game for essentially no penalty in mana.

Some of these stats in this game need a rework post 1.26 due to the constant balance patches.
Every pro scene of HU vs UD is HU just massing knights and flying machine and UD just straight out losing late game cause UD has no way to counter the tier 3 HU army.
Every pro scene of HU vs Elf is HU either massing rifles with or without expansion OR expanding and going straight to tier 3 inner fire knights and ‘just winning’ cause Elf has no counter to either of HU’s tech tree (rifles or knights).

I hope Blizzard follows the pro scene more because some of these units are too ‘good’ for the current costs in resources/timing in the game.

5 Likes
2

I hope blizzard do NOT listen to you and others who cannot play well and want to ruin a specific race !
You forget elf is not only bear !!!, (you said human are priest and knight) so for example if 3 bear and 2chimera meet 10 priest+ 10 knight sure human will loose !
Things are good as they were before, even introducing new abilities after 17 years (like prioritize) are bad, blizzard should not do this … better make warcraft 4 or mods for 3 just do not touch original game !

1 Like
3

inner fire is countered by antimagic

undead anti magic = destroyers

night elf antimagic = dryads, wisps, faeri dragons

destroyers are kinda weak now, but if you are saying the human has knights vs undead then clearly you are getting the wrong units

hey acc! i remember playing with you on USeast in 2016-18 or so :slight_smile: your other suggestions are good, but I dont agree with this one

1 Like
4

Isn’t he ranked like top 20 on w3champions and you’re saying he “cannot play well”?
What is your rank buddy? If it ain’t top 5 up there with Happy and the boys then maybe listen instead of talk.

5

So a dryad dispel of 50 mana from a manapool of 200, is supposed to counter a spell that costs 35 mana out of 400 manapool?.
Ok…

1 Like
6

Well, you are forgetting dryads don’t have mana to start with to counter water elementals… wait, you can have 5 dryads and there will still be a half hp water elemental left. Just kidding. No dispel from elf side :smiley:

Then HU has brilliance aura. Then unlimited slow with unlimited heal through kiting. It’s more like dryads have 0~1 dispel vs inner fire and 1 priest gets 15 inner fire before being ‘useless’ (aka full mana again for next fight cause no game will require 15 inner fire in 1 priest).

It’s kind of hilarious how bad dryad abolish magic is. Maybe dryads need a master upgrade training for dispel for larger dispel damage and mana. Cause right now, Elf is horrible at dispelling unless you want to suicide 420 gold each fight (+ lumber time of like 300 wood) just to see the opponent back out (and now you have no gold/wood cause you threw out your workers for a meaningless fight): after all, knights have 350 movement speed. Elf cannot catch up to knights backing out of the fight with bears being much slower than knights even before slow/clap/bolt.

I don’t think there’s any counter for any race for HU’s tier 3 in 1v1 currently. Go ask anyone in the community that actively plays this game. Most will say “try to end the game before human stabilizes to tier 3 because there’s no counter”. That to me is a poor game design. It means in larger maps in which late game is generally inevitable, there’s going to be glaring issues in balance in competitive scene.
But again, who am I kidding. We have a unit called necromancer which summons infinite units and a hero called a crypt lord that can also summon an army of beetles while also being the best tank in game with the best AOE in game (impale). This game :lollipop:

7

No , with knights you do paladin first then second Am, brilliance is max level 1. Or if u do sorcs and priest , you will not do so many knights. Elf can dispell with wisp cheapest unit , always you can find a lot of them. Also fairie dragons. Also Dryads , will also slow units . And NE air is the best rape all ground units ! And i did not say about starfall well done is instant die to all enemy ! So do not say me NE is bad race , or you do not have dispell alternatives !

8

What are you talking about. Do you even play the game in a relatively competitive level for 1v1?

Paladin first followed by Archmage? What? Dude, if you don’t play this game competitively, just listen. Ok? Good.

9

dont listen to any post made by Cat he only plays 4v4. I run into him all the time when Im trolling there and beat him easily with things like foot mass 50 food pushes and stuff. I done have straight teched not crept the map and tanked him to death. He has 0 knowledge of this game.

10

Elf counter knights with chimera inner fire counter with wisp and no one makes knights and inner fire vs undead into destros.

11

Say that when there’s like 3 flying machines or 1 dragon hawk. Chimeras are way too easily countered by HU especially with fast build.

12

Its not that hard to wisp spam inner fire off or even better mana nuke the casters prefight. Every good elf is brining 5 + wisps to fights like that. I have watched pros get smashed by archer mg orb with inner fire knight and it should be a hard counter to that.

13

Each wisp suicide is 60 gold and 25 lumber. The problem with knights are the movement speed (let alone MK’s clap and bolt that perma stuns the entire enemy army). You suicide 5 wisps (300 gold and 125 lumber) and a good HU just backs off.

You just lost the economy war in 1v1 which probably will cost you the game. Especially when knights are superior to bears in a fight and already costs less and you have to play 2 heroes vs human’s tri hero.

The matchup is in HU favour. Almost every competitive player in wc3 will agree Elf needs a buff (or HU needs a nerf) in this HU vs NE matchup currently.

Now, if the Elf plays much better or is a much better player, then yes, Elf will win. But at equal skill at high level, it’s accepted at this point that HU will dominate the matchup.

14

Since when do wisp cost lumber?

I am not arguing for one side or the other because I dont care about this matchup but randomly adding lumber to the cost of a basic worker to suit your argument is scummy.

15

So you are saying if Elf detonates 20 wisps, Elf still has wood? Dude. What? What logic is that. By that logic, killing peasants mining lumber has no effect on Human’s lumber economy. C’mon. Use common sense.

16

Except they only cost 60 and elf build extra just to dispel so if anything its +25 wood. :slight_smile:

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please flag and report [heresspaz] user post above !

18

nice try ill just flag you for a useless post (trolling)

19

The OP overrates inner fire. Take Bloodlust as a benchmark, it adds 25% speed and 40% attack speed. Inner fire, on the other hand, adds 30% EHP and 10% attack, which on paper seems stronger than Bloodlust (barely), but many Hu late-game units have high armor. On an unupgraded knight, it adds only 23% more EHP due to how armor stacks, for 35% more effective power, and on a fully upgraded knight it adds only 18% more EHP or only 30% more effective power.

Where inner fire is most useful, however, is the synergy with the Priest’s heal. When healing fully upgraded knights with inner fire, (without devotion aura), the priest is healing almost 50 EHP per shot, giving it an equivalent per food DPS to 25, a phenomenal level of healing.

That said, Knights are incredibly strong, since with Animal War Training, they beat virtually any other Tier 3 heavy melee unit without caster support, barring perhaps Pulverize Taurens, have Sundering Blades to enhance strength against medium armor, and are fast (350 speed) to boot.

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As for UD / Elf having no counters, UD can simply possess knights, which will probably give UD upkeep issues, but ToTD is rarely used due to the weirdness of Necs. Night Elf is in a harder place; they can go air army vs Priests / Knights, using the sheer mass of their air force to overwhelm rifles. Cyclone is another option, and while cyclone is relatively weak as an anti-tier3 option (only 20 seconds duration, can only hit ground, removed unit can’t be attacked), it IS still there.

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IMO, the way Knights were “misbalanced” was that they’re not an effective “shock” unit for Hu to tech up to. They’re superior to all Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units, barring perhaps the upgraded Berserker. In theory, you COULD nerf the unit overall, but buff their attack further (to increase the shock of having superior Tier 3 melee vs Tier 1 / 1.5 units), but knights already have a very high base 6 DPSPF (higher than ghouls!) to begin with. Experimentally, you could reduce their health or armor by 25% (which weakens their priest synergy, since priests will heal a crapload on knights) , but boost their damage further by 10% and see if that draws in Knight use.

They’re a fast unit to begin with, which implies they should be fragile, so the fact that they’d beat bears (even with roar!) with just Animal War Training is really unbalanced.

And this doesn’t impact Knight synergy with Priests (high armor + healing means a lot of healing is being done) that much, hell, arguably, it’d enhance their Priest synergy to a larger degree since priests are healing more glass cannon-like units.

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Heresspaz is biggest NOOB here and Troll too ! Report him always until Blizzard Moderators do something!