Idea for undead rework

Casual player here, be patient with me.

So I heard they were reworking the undead race with Reforged on the way, and I’m pretty happy about this since undead were my favorite race back in the day even though it always felt like they were missing something.

The reason undead were my favorite is because I’m fan of necromancy in games. I love spawning units using magic overall, but necromancy has always been my most preferred way of creating army of minions. And as much as I was happy about W3 having necromancers to raise those corpses, it always bugged me that the skeletons had a timed lifespan, which is understandable from balance standpoint as to not allow the undead player to swarm the enemy with spawnable skeletons, making the undead race too op. I have been thinking of way to remove time limit on skeletons while preventing the undead to become too powerful to handle:

1. Mindless undead
This idea of mine is based on the mindless/feral undead you encounter when you create an undead character in WoW. According to the game, those undead were left by the Lich King in Lordaeron after Arthas went off to defend Northrend and they were, well, mindless and uncontrollable, attacking everything in sight. My idea of this transferred to the W3 is that those undead would slowly wander around the map at random, attacking other players while remaining neutral to the player who raised them. I understand that this would require some balancing, like tweaking the skeleton stats and preventing them from providing vision to the player who raised them, but it doesn’t seem impossible. Interaction between those mindless undead and neutral creeps could also pose a problem, but any suggestion how to tackle this would be welcome.

2. Skeleton limit
Another idea I had would be to set a limit on how many skeletons can one player have at any given time, which would basically make them like Crypt Lord’s beetles without the need to recruit the hero (who is, as I’ve heard, not very popular anyway). Here we encounter another problem, which is that this would basically remove the need to build more than a few necromancers as well.

3. Skeleton pets
Third idea, sort of derived from the second one, is that every necromancer could keep a certain amount of skeletons, like ‘pets’ in WoW. Those pets may perma-follow their specific necromancer or could be entirely independent, and may or may not die when their specific necromancer does, whatever the devs and general public prefer.

I was also thinking of adding a ‘food’ cost to the skeletons, however, given how the upkeep mechanic works in this game, one’s gotta watch their supply unlike in SC2, which means that this would make raising the dead feel a bit like juggling lit torches and dynamite at the same time. In any case, I think by making some changes in this direction it would make the corpses an even more valuable resource for the undead and make the undead race more fun to play overall. I think it would make the undead players feel more like they are actually playing the undead.

I do, however, understand that those changes would require some amount of balancing, so it’s not an easy task. Any feedback (whether good or bad) and constructive criticism on these ideas, as well as another suggestions regarding skeleton lifespan removal, would be appreciated.

3 Likes

As a custom rework, I can get behind the idea of a more skeleton themed Undead.

IMO the timed life isn’t too much of a problem since there is the longevity upgrade, but I would probably prefer them streamlined to have just have a longer duration rather than it being an upgrade. I get having the upgrade makes it seem more special than raising them through Rods of Necromancy, but it’s become more restricting than anything.

I’m not sure pet-AI would work well for skeletons. It’s a neat idea, but controlling skellies isn’t really that bad. They’re A-move types of units, and the way you res em in battle has them auto-attacking anyways. I see skeletons as being units that should be treated the way they work in Warhammer Fantasy Battle - units you summon right in battle to hinder your opponent’s movement and progress towards your own back-line. Ideally they should be fodder.

The problems I see as voiced by the community are

  • They are easily countered by Dispel
  • The cooldown requires multiple Necros to get a good amount raised in battle, too much resource dedication towards casters.
  • They feed the enemy EXP

I think to solve this we should somehow integrate better synergy between Necros and their support role in creating skeletons in battle. Currently, you need to dedicate time to building up a bunch of skellies, then attack. Ideally, you should be able to do that within battle to overwhelm your opponent and have an advantage for it.

I would probably tweak the spell completely, as well as change some rulesets for skeletons.

Raise Skeleton

  • Changed to a Instant-cast AoE spell. Higher CD, mana cost
  • Raises up to 4 skeletons with one cast. Same rule of 2 raised per Corpse.
  • Skeletons only grant EXP if killed, not if dispelled
  • Skeleton limit to 12 at any given time
  • Casting Raise Skeleton on top of Skeletons refreshes their duration, possibly heals their HP or grant limited AoE protection

This would give Necros some attention, similar to the Unholy Frenzy change where you need to actively cast. Active focus is the tradeoff for having a powerful ability.

Raising 4 at a time and having a 12 limit means you only need 3 max for effect. You would make more if you want to be able to constantly heal and refresh your Skelly army.

I would also change up Meatwagons to actually fling and drop corpses where they attack, so you can use it to prep a location at distance. Basically use corpses to set up a ‘trap’ where you can spring up Skeletons.

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You want them to be skeleton themed but you also want a limit on skeletons, OP?

Limiting skeletons is a terrible idea thematically

How about you leave this forum now

1 Like

Ababmer, you are very rude. This forum is not the place where you ask people to leave because you didn’t like their idea, which they spent time on and effort to explain.

3 Likes

Sorry



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2 Likes

I really don’t see a point in making this. If the undead can’t control them, and have them as a RELIABLE combat advantage then it’s a bad investment OR you give them control over the zombie in which case you just made a “raise skeleton” spell last permanent.

I can only see 2+3 working together. Taking them separately does not make sense.
So you would have a 1-2-3-X number of skeletons limit per Necromancer but they would be permanent? I don’t see it working. Too hard to balance. Either the skeletons are really weak and you just need AOE to counter them, or you make them reasonably strong (like, keep them exactly how they are now) and UD could just go 10-15 Necro’s and basically have 2 permanent armies that can attack 2 different bases at the same time.
Then you would have to add supply limit to skeletons or just have a flat 20-30-50 skeleton limit across ALL your necro’s and that just kills the fun.