Just saying they need an hp upgrade likely by tier 2.
Shouldnt be too strong like 300+ thinking
150/125+ and 25%magic resistance
OR just move Ghoul Frenzy to tier 2. To make it more viable and effective
1 Like
i am not so sure. they are after all a worker unit.
i think ghouls need medium armor. no buffs, but that is a buff in sorts :))
maybe a speed increase to compensate for the ghoul`s low hp could help.
Thats is true.
But ghoul also serves as the Undead âFootmanâ.
Yes it should be weaker than footman but footman are much stronger.
And situationally can use defend at fiends for extra advtange.
The ghoul upgrade shouls be tier 2 not 3. Because by tier 3 u aint using ghouls.
Frenzy needs to be a tier 2 upgrade. That itself would be a big buff
4 Likes
Yes they need an HP upgrade, cannibalize needs to be made into a regeneration effect. No one asked for this useless dagger, just give cannibalize regeneration because no one can afford to have idle units in the earlygame. And donât buff all the Ghoul counters like MK, BM, Panda, TC. Every race has access to counters against Ghouls. Especially Thunderclap is absolutely insane.
Actually it is good for ghoul to be this weak, since they are a versatile unit (combining power of lumber worker and warrior), but as a buff reducing farm count from 2 to 1 is adequate i think.
I understand the want to make them a T3 viable unit, but buffing them is not the way to do it IMO.
We donât need Ghouls to be some parallel to Zerglings.
I do like having Frenzy at T2, that might be a good change. I mean Grunts get Berserk upgrade at T2 and it helps them survive as T3 viable units.
1 Like
The point is to give UD a working melee unit so they can play something else than Fiends. Abominations are stupid, clunky and worse t3 melee than any of the other race units. You would think with vampiric aura UD could make a nice army with some melee units, and apparently blizzard thinks that aswell else they would not have buffed vampiric aura. But its simply not the case because other options are way better. A 340 hp melee unit just doesnât survive long enough to ends up donating exp to your opponent. Especially since all the buffs to AOE damage like Clap, Stomp, Acid from Alchemist, Chain Lightning etc. And like I said Abominations are underwhelming and not worth to use more than 2, compared to other t3 units like Knights or Bears which are awesome.
So shouldnât there be more of an effort to boost Aboms?
All T1 melee units suffer from that same problem. We donât look at Humans and say footmen need boosts (though Humans do get Spellbreakers, which effectively replace them in T2+)
Itâs a bit of a tricky situation because I feel like UD should be the dominant âmelee swarmâ class, but I donât think Raise Dead, Ghouls and Aboms are satisfying that trend. I donât think any means to make AoE less effective or making units more in line with other race counterparts is a good change either. They should feel swarmy and be effective at it.
Hearthstone actually pulled this off the best with âDeathrattleâ mechanic. When a unit dies, it triggers an effect, so you always want to put out lots of these units and get them killed in battle in order to push an advantage. I think if more units had on-death mechanics, it would make items like Ritual Dagger and the DK/Lich spells more valuable than simply being used on skeletons.
Part of me thinks Disease cloud should have synergy with melee units kinda like a mini dark swarm or spell resist or something.
no they do not need any sort of hp upgrade.
1 Like
Guys please⌠What are you complaining about? Ghouls are cheap, can be used to rush early camps easily, can recover health on corpses, you donât need to spend a single penny for that and still defend the base⌠Undead players always rush tier 2 and 3 in no time, i never see any undead player pass more than 6 min max in early game using ghouls. Are you complaining about these cheap and easily recovered units are not super buffed and tanky? You have abominations, the death knight and the crypt lord for that. Ghouls were already buffed. If you pass 10 min of your game playing undead and youâre still using ghouls as your front line i donât think youâre playing right.
obs: By playing right i mean efficiently, i know there isnât a ârightâ way to play.
1 Like
Donât have to spend a single pennyâŚghouls are 120 gold, you get 340 hp and no base armor. Thatâs 80 less hp and 2 lower armor than a footman who costs only 15 more gold. In terms of surviving nuke spells: 80 more hp. In terms of effective hp vs physical attacks itâs like 130 more than the ghoul. Cannibalize is an efficient upgrade for creeping, but the problem is itâs clunky and requires the ghoul to sit there at a corpse to heal, and it doesnât really matter if your ghouls can cannibalize when they die to like 1 volley of aoe spells. They get access to ghoul frenzy, but itâs tier 3 so they already are nearly worthless vs competent players. Look at defend, look at range upgrades for archer/rifle, hunt bouncing upgrade, sentinel upgrade, grunt strength upgrade, berzerker upgrade for headhunters. Every single one of those I would argue is better than cannibalize. I wouldnât even be surprised if on average the troll regen ugrade totals as much hp healed passively without requiring a corpse and any dead time sitting there. I donât think anyone is suggesting ghouls need to have grunt level hp for 120 gold, but they really should either be closer to footmen level hp (if not armor + hp) OR cheaper gold cost and maybe make frenzy a tier 2 upgrade. Honestly, I suspect you could give ghouls an extra 50 hp and they still wouldnât become the standard unit in any matchup except an all in push on elf or if you happen to be one of the best undead players on the planet and can pull off the innovative strat that Lucifer did with dreadlord/firelord/dark ranger and ghouls vs orc. Itâs not that ppl expect ghouls to be the backbone of a lategame army, they just donât like them getting rocked by pretty much everything except a small amount of archers on open ground. I mean look at vsing a human 1v1. Ghoul vs footmen, disadvantage. Holy light in that matchup has several advantages over death coil. Not that they really even need those advantages, because am and mk are brutally efficient as well. If ghouls arenât supposed to be used past 10 mins, what a joke theyâd make their frenzy upgrade a tier 3 option. As far as aboms being the replacement
Nice.
But wouldnât Frenzy at T2 be too strong?
Ghouls need more hp, maybe +20 to 360 hp and another HP upgrade on t2 so you can make a real t2 army. UD needs dispel on t2 and Aboms should be unlocked on t2, with a real upgrade on t3. Something similar to knights or bears. Aboms are very underwhelming compared to those. If this happens, Undead can finally play a prolonged game on t2, make use of the dreadlord and vampiric aura and overhall have more variety instead of braindead t3 rush + orb, Lich, fiends, DK, statues.
The biggest issue for Undead is that the backbone of the army is DK/Lich/Fiends
This combination is what makes Undead competitive and is pretty much the only viable high level strategy where both players are of equal skill. You focus fire your fiends, fallback and shoot again. When a target gets to critical HP and/or overextends it gets hit with the classic Nova-Coil combo. You then add Statues and Orb mid-game, mix in your preferred caster and finally Destroyers late. I donât say this in a bad wayâŚits a great build, is unique and very fun to play!
Some argue Dreadlord/Ghouls is also viable and can be used to push for an early expansion. Technically anything is possible, but this feels less reliable, especially when considering two high level players of equal skill - you just donât see this melee focused army succeed very often.
Long story short I donât think you can consider Ghouls in isolation. The whole package needs to be built into a viable alternative to DK/Lich/Fiends
Dreadlord/Cryptlord/Ghouls/Abominations
Someone should focus of making the melee package a tech-path without interfering (buffing) DK/Lich/Fiends too much. If there was ever a new unit added to Undead it should be a melee T2 unit that falls between Ghouls and Aboms. There is also an argument for simply adding more upgrades for Aboms and Ghouls to make them more formidable as the game progresses. Wherever it falls out, its basically the DLs vampiric aura versus the DKs unholy aura. So basically melee units need a buff that pushes you into vampric aura or you end up with a melee DK/Lich army. Cryptlord should really be filling the TC role and Dreadlord moved more into a DPS role IMO as I cant see them working together as they are right now?
Summary of issues
DK/Lich/Fiends + friends = great synergy and a complete package from T1-3 (job done)
Unholy aura is more flexible and powerful than vampiric aura
Undead melee units donât really have a clear strategy to build around. Ghouls and Aboms donât even complement each-other and there is no third melee unit to really consider.
Any melee strategy should push the Dreadlord as first pick. The question is how do you do that without simply creating DK/Lich/Melee?
Dreadlord and Cryptlord are not currently compatible as a duo.
3 Likes
Though I bet they could make it work with tinkering for two reasons.
Dreadlord and Crypt Lord has waveclear with stun and carrion swarm. Stun is bugged right with invunerable glitcth.
Dreadlord has vamp aura which keeps CK extra alive. (CK Tank) plus he creates summons (which get buff) though I believe beetles need buff BIG TIME
Sleep works well against back liners shooting CL or using spell like Blizzard.
Inferno is strong unit with immolation aura and CL ulti is aoe dmg.
In Close fights they synergize as burn damage on units.
I mean there is the possibility, they both jungle fast.
Now if undead units could get movespeed upgrades then it can happen more liekly.
make them âno armorâ type, make them 485 hp, make the âghouls frenzyâ T2 grade and on T3 make them another grade âmagic absorveâ 100 dmg once in 60 sek cd.
Profit!
1 Like
Ghouls only have one problem that needs to be addressed.
Summary of all Ghoul feedback and crying is that they DIE way too fast post tier 2.
Spells clear them out very quick as they are weakest tier 1 unit in the game.
So in reality the only thing they need is either a HP buff or a spell resistance buff.
2 Likes
Thinking about the issues this would be my direction
Dreadlord
Buff Vampiric Aura to also give a slight attack speed boost to melee units
Reason: as it currently stands Vampric Aura does not compete with Unholy Aura over the course of the game. This would be a direct buff to melee heroes, ghouls and to some degree Aboms. Also bridges the tech gap with Frenzy (see below)
Ghoul Frenzy
Change the name (Frenzy) and allow it to also benefit other non heroic melee units. Possibly look at making the attack speed bonus increase the lower the HP of the unit - requires slaughterhouse and should be a long and possibly pricey upgrade.
Reason: Just makes the whole melee force more mobile and attack speed ramping creates greater synergy with Vampiric Aura over Unholy Aura.
Disease Cloud
Add: Friendly non-heroic melee units within range of disease cloud take X% less magic damage
_Reason: Keeps Ghouls alive against AOE nukes and creates another reason to mix in Aboms. Would be a OP if it protected fiends. _
Rampage (aka charge)
Ghouls gain the ability to leap short distances towards their target
Reason: gives the melee army a late game answer to range armies that simply want to kite
The general idea is to create a melee focused army of Ghouls, Skeletons and Aboms that does not need the DK/Lich combo. The Dreadlord acts like a Vampire Lord providing the critical sustain âVampiric Auraâ and is the linchpin to keep alive. The argument could then be made to run two additional melee heroes, or throw in the Dark Ranger for the buffs to Skeletons etc. This also does not take away from the existing play-style of DK/Lich/Fiends.
1 Like