Blizzard should have left RoC players on older patch


#13

Im not the one who said “Classic TFT is already gone”

what I said was “Can we expect the same treatment for classic TFT? Does blizzard plan on making just one ladder for Reforged and Classic combined?”


#14

Considering the idea of cross-compatability being a major point of Reforged’s release, I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s very likely that it and the original games will share a ladder.


#15

I don’t disagree with you but that would be HORRIBLE!!! It would show that blizzard doesn’t care, that they lie, and that the entire idea of remastering a game is a joke

What are we gaining from this that would be better than having Reforged as a standalone game?


#16

I know that the Brood War ladder remained a separate entity from the Remastered ladder. I’m a complete uber casual on that game so I’m not sure what the long-term effects are/have been in regards to unique ladders.

Why would a combined ladder on another game that also has cross-play be a bad thing?


#17

For 17 years players had the ability to log into TFT play some games, log out of TFT and switch over to RoC, play a few games, then return to TFT

But an updated, improved version of the game from 2019 is unable to do that? its a joke that a 2003 game could support 2 ladders but a new improved game is killing 2 ladders to make 1 new one

If Reforged was a standalone game, we would still have the option to return to the originals, but their business plan is to remove our options. What do we gain from it not being a separate game?

It sounds cool to be able to say “players who own the original can play with players who own Reforged” but its a cheap selling tactic


#18

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Reforged’s melee multiplayer is being added into the Frozen Throne ladder? Reforged isn’t coming out with its own thing.

Totally a granted and a given though that it’s a strange, not-like Blizzard thing to do in regards to Reign of Chaos’ multiplayer. Although I will say that the specific phrasing and diction at least leaves a teensy little sliver of hope (although I’ve never gone back to RoC multiplayer myself):

The use of ‘disabled’ rather than ‘removed’ or ‘deleted’. Again, the most I can muster is thinking that - again - something’s gone really askew while they’re working on all the programming and coding and online systems.

They haven’t removed the ability to make non-Lord of Destruction characters in Diablo 2, I can still hop onto not-Brood War BattleNet for Starcraft. They recently rereleased Diablo 1, Warcraft 1, and Warcraft 2 on GOG. It’s the optimist in me, but I don’t think they’re permanently axing Reign of Chaos’ online.

Not splitting the community.

Why would cross compatibility ever be a bad thing? There’s a healthy amount of games that do it across entire platforms even.


#19

Not if they are not separate, Like I said before, we had the option of 2 ladders with RoC and TFT for 17 years, but with Reforged they are “adding things to TFT” so that it is no longer the classic game.

So the majority of players don’t care, the majority of players want changes, and that’s fine. I’m not saying Reforged shouldn’t be released, I’m just saying there should be 2 ladders.

cross-platform is not the same thing as having 2 separate games (on one platform) with a cross-compatibility. Theres a few problems: A) lots of glitches with completely revamping the game B) the loss of the classic game C) the possibility of these changes not being completely perfect yet also being very limited D) a separate game could have had a lot more possibilities that remastering doesn’t allow

Did RoC and TFT cause problems by splitting the community? No it was never a problem. Obviously RoC was less popular, but the people who played it were dedicated fans for many years. That’s why I said its poor customer service. They hurt a small niche community because they are a small community.

If we apply the same logic to TFT, then once enough people are playing Reforged, then TFT wont matter anymore. The majority of people will say “who cares about TFT” and then those small groups of people who prefer TFT will lose the classic game.

I understand that we will still be able to login to the “classic TFT” game and even play against Reforged players, but why cant we have the option of playing the actual classic unchanged game? Like you mentioned we now have WC1 and WC2 updated for modern machines. So will we have to wait another 20 years for them somebody to release Classic RoC? Obviously that wont happen, which means the only way to play Classic RoC is by downloading an older patch and going on lan (obviously Im talking about multiplayer) or players could host custom games (but theres no stats in CGs currently)

That’s why I think its so important to have 2 separate ladders. I’m not saying that the games cant be cross-compatible, Classic TFT players can still play with Reforged players, but we should have a choice of “Classic TFT on patch 1.26” or the updated version of the game on patch 1.32. The reason people still play RoC is cause its simpler and has differences, so once Reforged is released it will be sad if theres no option of playing the classic game(even if its less popular) its nice having the option just to be able to see how the game has evolved over the years.

Overall it just looks bad to toss the long term players to the side, especially since Pete has stated they are looking into the possibility of having 2 separate ladders (a classic TFT ladder and a Reforged ladder) that doesn’t mean they wont be cross-compatible, it means all players should be able to choose either or (no matter which version you own)


#20

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
I’m not a RoC player. Hell, I’m not a melee player at all. However, this move by actiblizzard set a startling precedent that not I nor any other should take lying down. It’s disgusting.


#21

finally found the video I was looking for

If the video starts at the beginning, skip to the 20minute and 10second mark to hear Pete talk about the possibility of a traditional or unchanged ladder and a more “progressive” ladder, both of which would be available from either version of the game (tft or reforged)

What I want to know is “What is considered classic or traditional”?
to me Classic = patch 1.26 not 1.31


#22

Thanks for posting my Reddit thread.

While there’s some backlash against RoC players, ultimately it’s the destruction of a community that has occurred pretty much overnight with no advance thought or foresight that has really affected me and the (few) RoC players left. The game has survived zero patches, work, or architecture improvements by Blizzard. We’ve continued to make it work in our own ways. To see it destroyed in this way is truly devastating - as mentioned, the game won’t attract any newbies, but is still populated with Golden Oldies who enjoyed it for nostalgia sake. If it was taking up too much of a server drain, that’s fine. Just please, say something. Say something so I know that my last match played on RoC where I cubed and failed was to be my last match for good. Let us go in and take screenshots of our stats/icons for posterity sake. It is truly a concern this may affect TFT as well, post-Reforged. If they can shaft RoC without so much of an afterthought, it can occur elsewhere.


#23

I guess it’s just a difference in perspective and some discussion about semantics. If Reforged wasn’t even a thing, but all these changes were still happening, would it still be the ‘classic game’? Where does the line in the sand and definition end? Isn’t it not the classic game anymore since as far back as 1.10 when there was the pre-Frozen Throne patch? Isn’t Frozen Throne not its ‘classic’ iteration either since like 1.13 where there was a fair amount of numerical and mechanical changes?

I agree, but in a different regard. It should just be the Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne split.

The thing about this one though is that I don’t think too many people or enough would validate this. Depending on what possibilities we’re talking about, of course. There’s fan interest in an expansion or another race or even just another campaign but those examples are all, on paper, still just doable with Warcraft 3. I also think that there’s certainly more than enough interest that an entirely separate game should warrant something bigger than just a remastering/remaking like Blizzard’s doing now. Something akin to, say, a Warcraft 4.

The thing here is that functionally, they are different games. Reforged isn’t really going to be except in regards to singleplayer, but that’s not really a community thing in a specific regard. That it’s not an aspect of online play whether it’s melee/ladder/customs. Reforged is just an addon more or less. If somone’s owned Reign of Chaos and/or The Frozen Throne anywhere between 2002/2003 and when they were pulled from the Blizzard store (because Reforged now includes and provides them), Reforged isn’t a necessary purchase for the individual.

I’m curious, here. Did you have these same thoughts and feelings back in 2016 when 1.27 hit?

Sorry, I really don’t mean to be contentious here but the interviewer asks him about the game engine. We know that Reforged’s only engine changes are visual. It’s a question about Warcraft 3 gameplay as a whole. That’s why Pete Stilwell goes on to elaborate on what a “progressive” ladder might be, where they’d be changing the functionality of some gameplay elements. Such as larger unit selections. At no point is it specified either way whether it’s Frozen Throne or Reforged.


#24

Look, we clearly have different opinions, and you want to get very technical with “semantics” but I’ve already answered your questions. You asked me how I felt about 1.1 vs 1.27 and I already said that IMO 1.26 = classic. Obviously everybody might have a different opinion. But I think you understand what my point is here, so Im not about to write an essay explaining the differences of technical meanings, especially when nothing we say here has no fudging input on what blizzard actually does


#25

I’m just trying to follow the logic presented while also inquiring about the personal perspective.

I do understand your point, I just think it’s an odd place to stand.


#26

That’s fine if you have a different opinion, I do think the majority of players would agree with you, but I also think theres a decent number of people who would agree with me.

I just don’t see how it would have hurt the community if Reforged was made as a standalone expansion instead of a “remastering” of the original game. I’m not explaining myself enough because Im getting tired.

Heres another point: We currently have a broken map editor… would it not have been easier to just release a second map editor without breaking the original? if TFT stayed as it was we would still have the map making community, and blizzard wouldn’t have to put in half as much work making sure everything is backward compatible. On top of that a fully new map editor could be way better than a slightly improved one

Like I said before, backward compatibility sounds nice but its not that important imo. and its not the same thing as cross-platform compatibility. I personally don’t care about backward compatibility, if I want to play TFT ill play TFT, if I want to play Reforged ill play Reforged, I don’t need them to be compatible. That’s like saying lets make RoC and TFT compatible, its pointless

I have purchased 3 copies of WC3 because I liked having spare cd keys for chatbots (which no longer work, another problem to add to the list) I also refuse to preorder games with stupid skins, but once Reforged is released, if I want to play it Ill buy it. I don’t think that being able to play the classic game against reforged players is important. It might sound like a good selling ppoint, but in the end Im going to end up purchasing Reforged (technically my 4th copy of the game) with or without backward compatibility (that’s not the reason Im buying it)

If a new player buys reforged they get RoC and TFT for free, which could have been true wether Reforged was an addon or expansion or standalone game. So that doesn’t matter. The whole gimmick of backward compatibility is a fudging joke because all it means is they are making the original game unplayable

If theres TFT players who refuse to buy Reforged, then who cares? they don’t get to complain that they cant play because they didn’t buy it, that’s there problem not mine. If blizz just made WC4 would wc3 players get to complain that theres no backward compatibility? of course now, so why does it matter? the majority of wc3 players are going to buy the new game either way, and if the problem is they don’t have a good enough pc well that’s a pretty lame reason to support bc

I don’t know what better way I can explain my logic here, but if I had to guess on how this is going to turn out? well its not looking good right now, based on how these recent patches have been going :frowning:

Let me finish this by asking a big question: I understand if you disagree with me, but do you think my opinion is valid or completely out of proportion? I might be wrong about how Reforged is going to turn out, but I think my concerns are at least somewhat valid


#28

Starcraft: Remastered.

No, because Warcraft 4 would be an entirely different game. Reforged isn’t (unless we’re talking about the singleplayer experience).

Not out of proportion at all. And it’s not my place to ever try to outright invalidate someone’s opinion. I just think a rigid banner-planting on what the idea of the ‘original game’ is winds up being a bit stiff and exclusive. Narrowing it down to a patch rather than the game itself.

It’s really shaky now more than ever not just because of no news updates but because 2 days ago there was one hell of a bump in the road with a lot of the reported instability from the latest patch for Warcraft 3.


#29

There is a small community of people who played (and preferred) RoC ladder. Those people are very upset because not only their accounts but their very favourite game was shut down without any previous notice whatsoever.


#30

I don’t play SC:R but from what I’ve read, it wasn’t anything nearly as big as Reforged. SC:R supposedly had a lot of problems when it first launched (and we can assume the same will be true for Reforged) and even though Blizzard said they will continue supporting it (SCR) they haven’t done a whole lot since its released.

Now let me ask you, how many “new players” got into SC:R? Was SC:R for new players? or was it for long time fans? IMO SC:R has a dedicated fan base, and not a huge number of new players are just now getting into it. With Warcraft however, theres a lot of new players getting into the game, and its a real shame that the longtime players are the ones getting the shaft here.

If blizzard wants to encourage new players to buy the game, then don’t ruin the original game for the long time dedicated fans who have kept this game afloat for so many years

really?? is that true? if so then why cant the same be true for WC3


#31

But none of this really disputes the point that the release of Starcraft: Remastered didn’t make the original game unplayable. Granted Brood War hasn’t seen a balance patch since… 2005? With some edits to maps.

No idea, truth be told. I can make a haphazard guess that the design docket was to make current players happy with a better looking game, bring back any old fans that didn’t want to deal with the older visuals, and probably bait the hook for new people. I’m sure player retention wasn’t amazing. I’ve also heard that some higher level players stream in Remastered visuals but practice in the original. And I believe in the ASL, a few of those top players still play using the original visuals.

No idea. Again, I can only guess. Maybe there was something too archaic (Starcraft and Brood War both released in 1998) about some infrastructure that they couldn’t bring it up to speed without causing a total collapse. Not like Warcraft 3 was immune to this either because RoC is disabled and AT isn’t returning yet. It’s a question for the devs.


#32

that’s a problem, and could be true for wc3. the first thing fans like Grubby and B2W said when they first tested the alpha was “its very hard to identify units” meaning pro tournys will still be played in the original graphics. and the improved graphics are just for “casuals”… its also a bad sign for how much blizzard actually cares, hopefully they corrected the issues people were complaining about, but will it be good enough?

but SC:R was a much simpler upgrade, and we are already seeing the death of RoC, so my whole point is with talk about major changes to WC3 (such as new items and a level system locking items) sounds to me like they are making some drastic changes that belong in an expansion, not a remastering.

I don’t agree with you here. Adding a new race into TFT would be wrong. I mean I would be happy to see a 5th race added, I also would like to see new heroes… but that stuff belongs in AN EXPANSION …. NOT A REMASTER

For me, the last major change to TFT was when they added the last 2 heroes (I don’t remember which 2, maybe alchemist and panda?) but now we are getting new items and units are being moved around to different buildings, and tech is being changed… like these are things you do behind the scenes for a new game or expansion. This stuff doesn’t belong in a remaster… SC:R didn’t get new items or tech changes… and please don’t say Reforged isn’t a remaster cause it basically is a “de-masterng” in terms of all the changes (you know what I mean, lets not get into semantics)


#33

I’m not sure if it is expansion material.

If you look at all past WC3 patches during TFT, there were sweeping changes, tons of additions, and the addition of Mercenary Heroes through patches.

Goblin Tinker, Goblin Alchemist and Firelord were all added after the release of TFT, and were not part of the base package or even planned. They were afterthought additions, and we just accept it all as a part of TFT. Same with certain items that they added well after TFT. If I recall, Rod of Necromancy or Sacrificial Skull wasn’t a TFT release item either, it was added further on in balance patches.