I am a top 10% player. I play solo/2v2/3v3/4v4.
I can say that everything but 4v4 is fairly strategic and requires micro or has shades of gameplay where micro can swing a battle in your direction.
With the new game, we are going to see many new players, most of whom will love 4v4AT and RT (and if you think i am wrong, why Is 4v4 RT the most played RT and arguably the most played gametype).
My point is: Something needs to be done about 4v4 strategies. You either go mass air or you lose 90% of matches that make it to the 15 minute mark.
I still have not lost a game with the strat of fast expoing as human and building triple workshop gryo/mortar/aoe. Why? Because at least 2 people on the other team are massing air.
Air mass is only an issue in 4v4. Its not even hard to beat, its just lame because you are pigeon holed into the same strat every game.
If you were to make some special type of balance scenario for ONLY 4v4 (the others are fine) then you would be taking a step into the right direction.
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If it’s not hard to beat then surely all that is needed is for more people to understand how to beat it and do so to shift the meta? If the meta shifted to anti-air then wouldn’t people stop building so much air units?
What I’m getting at is how much is this a meta issue versus a balance issue? From what you’ve written if feels more like a meta one.
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Sounds to me like you are getting terrible opponents who doesnt hit your expansion or does anything to stop it, and you are benefiting greatly from that.
If you played against qualified opponents, you would probably lose the majority of your games.
This is mostly in trash tier/noob tier. Most competent players will make a strong mid game army and hit you super hard before you get a chance to mass air units.
4vs4 is more balanced than ever, with the old forced winrate matchmaking system gone, as well as tanks being nerfed.
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Play 10 games and tell me how many times air is massed by at least two people on the same team.
Look it doesnt bother me. I SMASH it. It would just be more fun if i could go another strat…and btw my expo gets harassed all of the time. I can hold it vs 70% winrate players. Been playing this game since beta.
77% archimonde…and that was back before you could cheese tourny wins. 1.14
So i get that in your mind you think its different, but truth is, its not.
Plus my comment is geared more toward new players. When reforged comes out were going to lose a bunch of players because they will say “oh well all you do in this game is mass air and thats lame”…i guarantee thats what happens if it doesnt get fixed.
That doesnt have to happen. There are MANY things blizz could do to 4v4 to mix it up.
Lol, new players would just not play 4v4 if air strats didnt work. No one plays 4v4 for the intense strategy. They play so they can mass one unit type and have other people to blame if they lose.
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Well ive been rank 1 4v4AT/3v3AT several times. I guess i dont know the game well enough.
It seems so.
20characters
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We even took someone who had never played the game and taught him how to double crypt fiend…went 36-0 rank 1.
So dont talk to me about balance or strategy. I understand this game to its fullest and i am here to say what i am saying about 4v4.
Its noobs on theae forums that blizzard listens to that causes the game to lose value. If you think mass air in 4v4 is not a strategy that wins most of its games…you simply either are so terrible at the game that you never see it…or…hell thats the only explanation.
Remember when u lost that 4v4 tourney game vs us. It was you and friends. Pretty sure won that game with mass spirit walkers ROFL
sorry man wc3 is balanced purely for 1v1 and that’s how the truth is, unless blizzard decide to divide the games balance to 2 groups of A: 1v1 and 2v2 and B: 3v3 and 4v4
you are not going to see reasonable balance on ether side without breaking one another when attempting to do general balance for both.
i know of the problems you speak of yet i’m not even a top 10% player but iv’e done my fair bit of research on strategy games and how they work and due the small fact i’m working on a custom melee myself i clearly see a pattern and that is i can not balance my map for both ends of the stick it’s just not going to happen and the reason for that doessn’t exist in number balance or small tweaks here and there in the game but the core of the games design and arguebly the fact that the game has been balanced around 1v1 for soo long it became apart of the game.
on a personal noob point of view i feel like … why is everyone using 1v1 guidlines in 4v4 and i also feel like whenever i’m playing 4v4 i’m not actually playing a team game of 4v4 … i’m playing… 4, 1v1 in a bigger map that can support it.
cheers. (i’ll check back here prob late tomorrow again)
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No, you know it too well. That is the problem. You somehow think new players think the same way you do. They don’t. You are probably the most disconnected example of a new player there could be, Mr. #1 36-0.
Why would new players complain about the lack of strategy and air massing when that’s practically the sole reason they would play 4v4 instead of 1v1.
I get you want 4v4 balanced. I don’t get how you can’t see the obvious though. There’s a reason why 90% of your games have people massing air. It’s what they enjoy. You somehow think that taking that away is what they want. They wouldn’t be playing 4v4 if they weren’t enjoying it. Massing air isn’t some trade secret we’re talking about here.
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You are exactly right, it needs custom balance parameters seperate from solo. Honestly i feel like map layout + changing unit food counts would fix it.
Mass air isn’t overpowered, but it’s definitely strong. The main thing I’m annoyed about in 4s is how air counters tier3 melee so hard, there’s no point at all to ever make tier 3 melee as they just melt vs anything with magic damage, and they probably wouldnt even do much damage anyway due to the clutterfest that 4s is. I wish heavy armor would only take 100% damage from magic damage anyways.
That said, I always felt like batriders were just way too good in 4s. Their suicide attack should definitely have a cap on the splash damage. Definitely needs a nerf vs buildngs too.
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You’re right its easy to counter as i said in my original post. You are also right about t3 melee.
My point of the post is that if you want to win 4v4 someone or maybe 2 players have to mass otherwise useless units to counter the air. (Gryos, hippogrphys, gargs, bats).
Sure there are alot of other strats but massing AA has and will continue to win most games.
I wish we had a more micro intensive 4v4. Pressing a+click to destroy an army of chimera is lame.
chimeras having longer range then towers is also lame, they are basically flying orc catapults.
Play for the early game, go for strong midgame armies and run them over before they reach whatever they want at tier 2, it’s what I do.
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We can theorycraft it all day. Fact remains that well above 50% of 4v4 players play for air.
Personally i like your strat. You can win many games that way if you have good micro.
My point on all of this is not about seasoned players…its how those air massing noobs are going to turn ALOT of newer people off of the game