Nope mass zerglings/banelings and roaches/ravages will pawn the ghosts.
If what you say it’s true, then Zerg would never have won any tournaments since all that is required are Ghosts.
Besides spending so much gas on ghosts means there will be so much lesser tanks and liberators. This means you would take so much lesser AOE damage and can mass more cheap units to win the game.
While I do agree that range is a huge advantage in battle, the Zerg’s advantage of speed on the creep and the ability to mass units in such a short time allows the Zerg to compete on equal footing.
If the Zerg do not have weaker range, the game would be completely imbalanced in favour of Zerg.
The point is every race has their perks and drawbacks.
Carrier is so slow that you need to start moving it close to instantly when bile gets casted. When moving carrier can easily dodge biles yes BUT a) carrier has a huge hitbox and b) ravagers cost next to nothing compared to carriers (plus the tech into it) and c) you can spam biles as they have just 7 seconds cooldown. not saying you should counter carriers with ravagers but its no way near as one sided as you want it to sound like.
also…it takes 2.5 seconds for a bile to land.
you dont have to be underneath them because they have a range of 9…my god. also they need to hit 8 shots to kill a carrier.
seriously. if you want to counter carrier with ravager you do something veeeeeery wrong. this discussion is next to nonsense while you either purposely lie or just dont know the game well enough. why do you want a cheap mass producable t1 unit to counter a t3 unit in the first place???
just use corrupter. or early game use queens. they kill carriers easily.
Those zerglings/banelings and roaches/ravages not needing lair tech is a good thing as this means it’s even easier to mass them at the early stage. Don’t understand why you must insist on lair tech.
And it’s not like ghost hard countered those T3 units either. While those ghosts are charging their “snipe”, they are immobile and vulnerable which means they can be killed by anything from basic zerglings, Mutas to any T3 units.
Some Zerg units such as Zerglings and Mutas are already one of the fastest in the game even without creep.
Having creep access allows these fast Zerg units to be even faster to the point that Terran and Protoss will be discouraged to engage the Zerg while on creep.
Opposing Terran and Protoss will make it a priority to snipe the creep tumours not only to cancel the Zerg speed boost but also to remove the Zerg’s vision.
Ghosts sees more presence only in late game.
By the time the game reaches late game, it would be easy for you to mass zerglings/banelings to kill the Ghosts.
Or use Mutas to snipe the Ghosts while they are charging their “snipe”.
i understand your point, but i evaluate them differently.
these are the biases of both sides.
Example: the “charging” of snipe is not long for me when I think of 10 range.
I have other scenarios in mind when I think of Ghost than you.
I think Mutas are a bad choice against Ghost. 3 range and a bad fighter unit.
if i fly over base and harass, i can catch 1-2 ghost. but if the T- ghost has control it runs in range -5 mutas 500/500 for free or more.
or “stop charging snip” … Tank/ thor/ mine/ bio/ PF/ lib/ towers. In this situation this is a full engage. this or just army back.
i’m thinking of a game of clem… mine/ ghost/ medi was a big part of his army.
And the versatility of ghost:
snipe all big zerg unit
poke with snipe (invisible)
remove all zerg caster - infestor useless/ viper 1-2min afk to charge energy.
Zone with Nuke
harass with nuke (invisible)
relatively fast movement 3,94
for the worst case still an auto attack
btw. ghost gas cost? 125 among the casters the cheapest, in terms of gas.
clear with bio difficult to use.
But of course when you think of ghost you have other scenarios in mind, probably situations where the control of ghost is made difficult.
Missile turrest can have 8 range with a cheap, low tech upgrade, spores cannot.
I have never, ever abducted without having interceptors tag me unless he is on hold position. Carriers have range like brood lords, its a little bit further than the stated range. And void rays are not good abduct targets, neither are phoenixes, no one would ever abduct those units unless the carriers/tempests were dead.
This is kind of misleading, no one just tags 1-2 units with a fungal like that. It’s a waste of energy. No one plays like that. The range is 8.
I know it happens, but 1.43 seconds doesn’t seem like a lot of time to react/click unit/attack unit before it goes off to me.
But yeah if they are surrounded by lings im sure it feels like forever from the terran pov.
AOE is king, and zerg have the least AOE with the lowest dps in the game. Ultras “aoe” is damn near worthless. I’d happily trade your raven abilities for parasitic bomb and microbial shroud. Those spells are garbage.
Except that snipe has a range of 10, and nothing in the zergs army has a range of ten, save for brood lords. But they are probably the snipe target and will die before they get a shot off.
So realistically, you can sit back and snipe everything relatively safely.
Ultras/banes/lings/roaches/ravagers/lurkers/mutas will never touch a well managed ghost. Maybe a brood lord will, but at that point your trading one of the most expensive units in the game for a ghost.
I believe it’s actually 10 from the center mass of the spell, rather than the very outer edge, but I don’t really have any way of confirming that. So far as I am aware, EMP and Storm work the same way.
Which you will never ever spend money on that early in the game because you need the gas and/or minerals for other things. Late-game, sure. But that still doesn’t make it any shorter range than the photon cannon (you stated it was shorter than both protoss and Terran)
I’d have to double-check this personally to verify, but I’m fairly certain that it has happened before.
Carriers have a leash range that require you to get to 8 or less range in order for the interceptors to come out. Once they’re out, they have a maximum range of 13. Again, it’s something I’d have to test or access within the editor to be 100% certain, but I don’t believe that’s the case. It could also have to do with the acceleration/deceleration of the casting unit as well, though I believe vipers come to a dead-stop when a spell is cast, rather than slowing down first.
Well agreed that it’s normal for Terran players to feel that “snipe” takes long time to charge while non- Terran players may feel otherwise.
But for me I would rather have a faster attack speed with lower damage rather than risking the life of my Ghosts to be killed while charging the “snipe”.
Well usually it’s way easier for Zerg to mass Mutas as compared to Terran massing Ghost.
Asides from that I am actually referring to the part where Ghosts are immobile while charging the “snipe”.
My point is that any Zerg units be it zerglings, drones, Mutas and etc can kill the Ghosts easily if they are charging their “snipe”.
Mutas are one good choice since they are fast and can fly.
You can even use burrowed Infestors to neural parasite the Ghost.
If you are talking about big engagements, then it’s fair for both players then.
It’s just a matter of player skill whether the Zerg can kill the Ghosts fast enough before they do too much damage. Should not be difficult since Zerg can mass units relatively fast.
Perhaps you think too highly of Ghosts.
Not only do they require great control but their abilities comes with great limitations.
“Snipes” takes time to charge to fire on their target and the Terran player is risking their Ghost’s life for that.
Cloaking isn’t free unlike burrowed Infestors and dark Templars which means less “snipe” and EMP attacks.
EMP do remove 100 energy from spellcasters. However Zerg spellcasters can easily regain back their lost energy by consuming their ally. Ghosts cannot recover energy as fast as Zerg spellcasters.
Each nuke cost minerals and gas. A decent player can easily minimise the nuke damage by moving away even if they are unable to spot the Ghost. And if the ghost is killed, that would be the worst investment ever made as not only no damage is done but the Terran player lost both the nukes and the ghost.
The reason ghost might be a little cheaper than other spellcasters is because they are dedicated anti-spellcasters and are not as well rounded as other spellcasters.
Example High Templars’s storm and infester’s fungal growth can kill any enemy forces but the Ghost’s “snipe” is limited to bio units.
Well glad you agree that Ghosts are hard to control especially when there is a big army.
So naturally Ghost would not be such a big threat most of the time for non-professional players.
Not really. Other than ultras, Zerg also have the following attacks capable to kill multiple units as follows:
Ravager’s bile
Baneling Bust
Infestor’s Fungal Growth
Viper’s Parasitic Bomb
Lurker
Mutas bounce attacks
That’s pretty a lot to me.
Lurkers and banelings have high damage potential while infestor’s fungal growth can also slow opposing force.
I take it then that you agreed that Parasitic Bomb is great then since you are willing to exchange Raven’s abilities for Viper’s Parasitic Bomb.
Lurkers also can upgrade their range from 8 to 10 if range is your concern.
Anyway Zerg does not need superior range because they move much faster especially on creep and can mass units much quicker than other races to negate the range disadvantage.
Just swarm the Ghosts and their other armies with mass zerglings/banelings supported by your main army and if you get it right, the Ghost would either be killed or forced to retreat.
That’s not true because the Zerg got ample of the ways to kill the immobile and vulnerable Ghost while charging their “snipe”.
Examples include using zerglings/banelings, ravager’s bile, Mutalisks and even burrowed Infestors neural parasiting the Ghost.
I think your issue is that you value range above everything else. If that is the case, playing Terran or Protoss might suit your play style better.
Yes range is an advantage but so is speed and the ability to mass units faster.
The point is Zerg are meant to swarm their enemies with overwhelming numbers with superior movement speed especially with the creep bonus.
So Zerg do not need superior range.
Terran do need superior range because they do not build as quickly as Zerg and are less mobile compared to the other 2 races.
i mean which race has the most range and is known for turtle style? …terra
That’s why, it’s not quite true…
as said scenarios in which ghost is not vulnerable or interruptible after all.
would not see them as counter. simply because mutas is a poor fighting unit.
good to know that Ghost have the role " anti-caster". The problem is that my Ultra/ BL/ Lurker /hydra/ ravanger… and many shield units are not casters.
If the Terran turtles, that’s great for the Zerg player actually because that means that the Zerg player is free to expand more bases with little to no harassments/attacks giving the Zerg player great economy.
Which means that in this case the Zerg would have plenty of resources to overwhelm their opponents until they run dry of resources.
So in this case it wouldn’t matter how many Ghosts or how many “snipe” shots the Terran could afford because the Zerg will eventually overwhelm the Terrans with overwhelming numbers.
The fact is while Terran may excel in defence but Terrans has to be in the offensive because late game isn’t to the Terran’s advantage. That is Terran stands a better chance to defeat the Zerg before the Zerg have hive tech.
Against immobile Ghosts that are still waiting for their “snipe” to charge, anything that attacks can kill them.
If you don’t like Mutas to pick them off, you can always use zerglings/banelings, lurkers, ravagers with bile and etc.
You can even try using swarm host free locust to distract the ghost.
So many ways to kill Ghost. I have never viewed Ghost as a great unit but rather as support to fire EMP to drain Protoss’s shields.
Those Ghosts do not hard counter these units.
Even if the Ghosts manage to fire a few “snipe”, the Zerg’s overwhelming numbers would eventually kill the Ghosts. Those snipe don’t do AOE damage and takes a long time to charge.
Besides Ghosts are not practical to mass most of the time as they are support units and not core units.
Your entire list might as well be titled: “the worst AOE in SC2.”
Ravager bile is easiest aoe to dodge in whole game
Baneling bust is bad even when it works, you lost half your army to kill half his, hurray!
Fungal is trash now without a full 3/3 army to capitalize on the snare
Parasitic bomb is garbage, easily micro countered
Lurker is some good aoe, I’ll give ya this one.
Mutas bounce lol. What does that hit for? 1-3 damage? Literally zero extra damage against upgraded units.
I agree with you, I just think that it sucks that zergs have to trade 1000s in minerals and gas over and over just to keep a cheap unit from sniping all tier 3 in the zerg army. Seems like a lame ability, you just sit back and cast, wait for them to make a mistake.
I already addressed this, the snipe cast time is like 1.4 seconds. That is not enough time to get a bile off, or run in lings/banes or even mutas. 1.4 seconds is not much time.
I very much disagree with this, but I think you are correct that zerg are no longer for me.
They havent been good since they got neutered so hard in the last 3 years.
After they nerfed brood lord range, making the capital ship of the zerg army just auto lose to thors/cyclones/etc., I knew my time playing this game seriously was over. They nerfed the ultras (3 times), the infestors (12+ times), the vipers, and then the broods. I’m not interested in roach/ravager all ins or late game spore forests with lurkers. No thank you, they ruined this game’s design, I don’t think zerg is worth playing anymore.
possibly in old versions. But zerg is no longer as strong in the late.
you have a shift in dynamics, in TvZ first Terran is the more active then zerg becomes the more active. Terran still has his counterattacks and harass.
you make it sound like “if ghost snip, then pull drones from your main they interrupt him because you have so long”.
killing is another matter.
slowly dead argument, because it is not so true.
15+ … does not look like support…
vs ghost snip …that is trolling… 100%
i think there is no point in discussing anymore.
and you don’t bring any new arguments that convince me.
an “anti-caster” that is built in games 15+, but besides caster is also good against everything t2+ zerg units.
and is also versatile. Is not a good design for me.
have a nice day.
It may be the easiest to dodge but at least you force your opponent to flee or take heavy damage.
While your opponent flees, you can capitalise on the advantage to hunt them during the chaos.
Banelings bust are mainly to kill light units. In this case banelings do counter ghosts since their “snipe” only does single damage.
And losing banelings isn’t a big deal because each of them cost only 25 gas as compared to each Ghost with 125 gas.
Very worthy trade for the banelings to kill Ghosts.
You don’t need a 3/3 army to capitalise on the fungal’s snare.
Fungal deals decent AOE damage while slowing opposing force. No other spells in the game have dual functions. And it’s so much better than Raven’s anti- armour Missiles that does zero damage.
It’s used to counter mass air to air battle whereby it’s not that easy to just move away the affected units.
Even if the opponent move away their affected units to escape the AOE, you still have the advantage of forcing your opponent to regroup which allows you to pick them one by one.
Blizzard specifically added this spell to help Zerg counter the Golden Armada.
Glad we can agree on something.
In huge numbers like 20+, those extra bounce damage do makes a difference.
This bounce attack is one of the reasons why Mutas counter both Vikings and Void Rays.
Ghosts aren’t cheap with 125 gas and it would take some time for the Terrans to train Ghosts.
Simply put Ghosts are bad against swarming units since they lack AOE and this makes them extremely weak against zerglings/banelings and roaches/ravagers.
You sounds as if getting shot by one “snipe” is enough to end the game.
If the Ghosts wants to “snipe”, then let them be and swarm them with your main army. The damage they do would be pitiful comparing to you killing those Ghosts and their support units.
If you can kill the Ghosts before they charge the “snipe”, even better.
Look if Zerg have equal range with Terrans, that would be a massive imbalance in favour of Zerg.
Zerg already have faster build time, faster movement speed and the ability to mass units faster than any race. Giving Zerg extra range would break the game.
And if you really think Zerg have been nerfed too hard, you are always free to switch to Terran and Protoss.
Perhaps you will be happier since you seems to favour range above everything else.
But as far as I know, Zerg still win tournaments. So they are not being heavily nerfed.
Zerg is much stronger late game in old versions (end of WOL era) but they are still stronger in late game compare to Terrans which force Terrans to do a push mid-game and keep harassing the Zerg’s economy.
My point is that ghosts are vulnerable while charging their “snipe”. So just utilise whatever forces you have to kill those Ghosts if they bother you so much.
When I play Zerg against, Ghosts are the least of my problems and isn’t my priority target.
How can it be not true when it’s so simple to kill immobile Ghosts that are charging their “snipe” with any of your army that can attack ground troops.
If you are referring to a big army to army battle with Ghost being part of the composition, then it’s a matter of player’s skill.
Well I highly doubt it happens all the time and even if so that’s late game. Ghosts take some time to train.
And if the Terran can mass 15 Ghosts, that means it’s late game and you can mass even more units to counter the Terran’s ghosts.
What I mean to say it’s you can use anything that attacks ground against immobile ghost.
Plenty of ways.
You can even spam swarm host’s free locust to force the ghost to retreat.
I doubt anyone can convince you anyway since you are so persistent on the matter.
But perhaps you can try playing Terran against your opponents from your main race’s league and see how you fare with Ghosts.
Ghosts has high micro requirements and to use them while maintaining macro is no simple task.
And even if you did micro those expensive Ghost well enough, there’s no guarantee that you would deal enough damage to justify their cost. Furthermore Ghosts have pretty low HP.
Most of the time the gas used is better spend elsewhere.
Again I would say it’s rare to have 15+ Ghosts since they take time to train and even if so this means you reach late game whereby the Zerg would have big enough economy to kill those ghosts with swarming units.
And they aren’t that great against T2+ Zerg since the weakness of immobility while charging the “snipe” makes them extremely vulnerable to almost anything that can shoot.