Zerg Adjustments to bring back Iconic Muta Ling Bane

You are cutting the Phoenixes damage in half and simultaneously giving Mutalisks 25% more health. That makes Mutalisks 2.5x tougher against Phoenixes. The micro for Phoenixes against Mutalisks is already fairly tight due to the high speeds of both units, so I strongly doubt that would end well.

Thors with Javelin missiles would be just as heavily impacted, although I don’t particularly care about that case since Thors will probably still be effective in HIP mode, which is just better in general.

There are plenty of other scenarios that a 25% health buff can break, so I don’t think Mutalisks would get that much extra health after testing. This is why my suggestion is to make a mod and play around with it.

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How about hive-tech upgrade to improve Muta survivibility by adding +15 HP and gives +1 armor, thus making them Armored units instead of Light units? As it’s hive-tech, shouldn’t be a problem…

  • New research: Hardened Carapace
    • Cost: 200/200, 79 seconds
    • Research from: Spire
    • Requires: Hive
    • Increases maximum HP of all Mutalisks from 120 HP to 135 HP and gain +1 armor. With upgrade, Light tag is replaced with Armored tag.

Except that you are suddenly swapping out the Mutalisk’s counters. If someone was using Phoenixes or Explosive Thors, their damage output suddenly drops by more than 50%, and they need to rapidly change their unit comp.
Please try the upgrade at a cheaper cost (or as an innate stat buff), and without the tag switch.

You could probably make an extension mod of that yourself, as it isn’t very hard to do.

The point of the mutalisk is to do light harass, escape, heal up, and go back in. Phoenix prevent retreating. That’s the issue. If anything, the phoenix should’ve been designed like a medivac in that it’s a supporting unit that prevents damage. You could implement such a thing by having the lift mechanic save friend units from harm, and allowing it to lift 5 probes each. This would be a more reasonable counter to the mutalisk harass. As it is implemented currently, the phoenix is an extreme hard counter to the point the mutalisk is simply deleted from the matchup. This is intentional because protoss lacks a generalist unit & this makes them vulnerable to tech switch styles.

Fixing this issue, and the myriads of others, simply isn’t possible without a fundamental rework of the core design of protoss.

Protoss units have a lack of synergy and so they are all over buffed to the point that they are all a little overpowered, but some a lot more than others. This means the strategy of unit comps and positioning and army division is basically non existent for protoss. That’s why it’s such an incredibly boring race to play & to watch. The toss defends until 160 supply and +2 finishes, then he f2 amoves and wins. That’s basically how apetoss works.

Recall needs to be reworked so that it only saves 1 unit but each nexus has its recall cooldown. Phoenix needs to be redesigned as a ground support unit aimed at damage prevention. The disruptor needs to be reworked as a siege and forget unit that hits only ground units. The void ray needs to be reworked as an anti air splash specialist. Prismatic alignment should be an ability you activate that drops the void rays shields but does a line of splash damage that, if timed right, could wipe out a cluster of air units for free. If done wrong, the void rays could kill themselves or be killed from dropping their shields. Storm simply needs to be straight-up nerfed.

Disruptor void ray would be the foundational unit comp. Phoenix would be added in for harass mitigation. Archons would be added to deal with banelings. So on and so forth.

Each one of these changes is carefully designed to fix an issue with Protoss’ design. The disruptor fixes an issue with dividing attention. Protoss is the only race without a siege and forget unit, and so this makes multitasking problems more challenging. Recall is a deathballing mechanic and needs to be reworked so that it encourages spreading out. Recalling a single unit would incentivize protoss to move out with singular carriers or singular archons. This would have a high skill cieling because with 5 nexus there would be a lot of options available. The phoenix over counters some things and outside of those scenarios is useless. Toss has a hard time evacuating a position after losing ground control, but of phoenix can pick up & carry a cluster of 5 protoss units, and they are safe from harm while doing so, that’s a pretty good solution & would add a lot of synergy to protoss ground comps. Archons and stalkers would require phoenix support.

There are ways to fix these issues, but Protoss will have a collective melt-down because the days of f2+amove free win gravy train will be over. Most protoss would lose close to 1,000 mmr on the ladder. Right now, they just don’t have to worry about positioning and army composition and multiprong and micro to the same degree that the other races do.

Also, carriers need to be reworked so that the interceptors have to be microed. The interceptors should be completely useless without micro, similar to a medivac drop of marines which easily die to 2 banelings if not managed.

Basically the automation has to be deleted from protoss, and they need to be given versatile tools that can solve in game problems by using micro. As long as protoss is designed to turtle to 160 supply, f2 amove, it’s doomed. It will be impossible to balance and it will be boring to play and boring to watch and boring to play against. The game will have no significant strategy because the lack of unit synergy makes protoss hyper vulnerable to inject tech switches and that means zerg just can’t have options. Since zerg can’t have options, the game is hyper repetitive and crazy boring. Protoss is the single biggest obstacle to SC2’s success. The pro players in particular will have an aneurysm if you redesign the race because they are actually 5k players using protoss to cosplay as professionals. Their careers would be over if protoss required the same skills as terran and zerg.

To be honest, Mutas are countered by almost every unit in the game. They will probably get owned still by WMs, Thors, Phoenixes, Hydra. If tag switch is too strong, but buff HP by +30.

Exact number can be tested, but the overall idea of HP boost for Muta as an upgrade is very sound. Mutas will still die enmasse.

Mutalisks are very good at using their speed and regeneration to avoid getting caught and killed. This elusiveness is the reason why Mutalisks aren’t supposed to be good in direct combat, as they can rush in, pick some stuff off, and rush out over and over again.

The only things that Mutalisks would arguably need more health to deal with are Widow Mines, and that is only if you subscribe to the notion that those are an excessive counter. Mutalisks would only need +10 health minimum to survive a mine hit, although a +15 health buff may also be reasonable.

Phoenixes are the only Mutalisk counter that can actually chase Mutalisks down, but they are usually outnumbered by quite a margin and need to kite to do so effectively. Kiting Mutalisks with Phoenixes is not forgiving. When the two groups are moving towards one another, the Protoss player has only 0.346 seconds to turn their Phoenixes around if they want to avoid taking damage, and that is with the full +4 range advantage from upgrades.

2 Likes

Sounds reasonable and updated OP. I’ll take middle point of +20 HP for Mutas as it is a hive upgrade for more late-game survivibility and doubled cost as compared to Combat Shield…

  • New research: Hardened Carapace
    • Cost: 200/200, 79 seconds
    • Research from: Spire
    • Requires: Hive
    • Increases the maximum HP of all Mutalisks from 120 HP to 140 HP. As a visual indicator for upgrade, the Mutalisk’s body will be slightly bulkier.
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your forgetting one key important detail, mutas half to stop and attack, phenix dont, this is why they always beat muta, cause the can keep flying and keep away when the mutas half to stop.

Specifically, the Mutalisk’s attack’s “allowed movement” is “Slowing”, so they need to be given an attack order, but they do not need to come to a complete stop before shooting.

The weapon also has the “No Deceleration” flag, so you can order Mutalisks to move right after attacking, with only partial loss of speed (it depends on how long you pause between orders).

The point is more that you can juke Phoenixes into range by switching directions. Maybe this whole arrangement needs to be changed, but that is how it works now.

not when you gotta micro your heart out against phenix, your definitly stoping every attack.

Alright. Time for a lesson on ZvT. Zerg is on the clock because every base after the third base the zerg is trading negative. Why? Because he’s behind in upgrades. Marine medivac trades ridiculously well. The only way to solve this is to rush out hive. Hive units are so critical to a zerg’s ability to keep a 4th and 5th that zerg has to skip upgrades to get there. It’s not uncommon for a zerg to have +1 attack on roaches, +1 melee, and that’s it. You’re fighting against 2/2 bio, soon to be 3/3, but you will have 4 armor ultras transfused on creep. In addition to this, going hive gives you access to adrenal which, with +2, can begin to threaten planetaries and unit rallies. The standard way to play zerg is to turtle on creep to ultra tech, and counter attack with +2 adrenal while the terran pushes onto creep.

The spire costs 200 gas. Mutas cost 100 gas each. You need 12 of them to be able to kill a turret despite SCV repair. For 1400 gas you could have hive and adrenal and a few ultras. Ultras and lings can win fights vs 3/3 bio, and can beat planetaries. 1400 gas of mutas can barely beat a missile turret. This isn’t even getting into their interactions with thors, cyclones, ghosts, widow mines, each of which are a hard counter to mutas.

Giving mutas a hive tech upgrade would be a nice gesture, but would accomplish nothing towards making them viable in ZvT because the fundamental issue is how do you stop midgame bio pushes. If you go mutas, you won’t get to keep a fourth. You can kill a missile turret, though, so that’s nice.

Even if you could find a way for a muta player to keep a fourth, the next issue is how do you prevent zerg from going back to the mass mutalisks meta of HotS where they go double spire and literally never make a hive. The mutas snowball so hard, with their mobility, that they can start to one shot command centers. If they ever get in your main, for even 5 seconds, your production is COOKED.

The issue is that the mutalisk’s power curve is all out of whack. They are too weak in small numbers and too strong in large numbers and it should be the reverse. They should be strong in small numbers and weak in large. If the zerg is going mutalisks AND affording hive AND having time to research hive tech, the zerg already won the game & is just toying with his opponent. This isn’t a real strategy that would be used in a real game.

1 Like

:+1:

Sounds good, removed Hive requirement for upgrade (still needs to be expense though)…

  • New research: Hardened Carapace
    • Cost: 200/200, 79 seconds
    • Research from: Spire
    • Increases the maximum HP of all Mutalisks from 120 HP to 140 HP. As a visual indicator for upgrade, the Mutalisk’s body will be slightly bulkier.

Well, muta’s are now on clearance as I’m proposing reduced gas cost at 125/75.

now that i think about the price for them a bit more, i know off hand that i my self usually end up with way more minerals than gas so the added mineral cost is still pretty resonable

I’m all for trying out big changes, but these are just too swingy going all in at once. Try out one of the buffs (earlier Spire, or cheaper gas cost for Mutas, or a durability upgrade for Mutas) and see if that fixes it. If not, then adjust.

Regarding Widow Mines, reduced splash damage vs air might be something easy that could be looked into, and that doesn’t even need any Muta changes.

All that said, I have a love-hate relationship with this dynamic in units:

Same reason I’m not a huge fan of lots of Medivac drop play. I want to see small skirmishes on the map that aren’t in Mineral lines. Yes, this is just a personal preference of mine.

This I absolutely agree with, but it’s difficult to accomplish.

So the way I would approach it is:

  • How can we make them good in low numbers but not in high numbers? (This means maybe reducing the strength of splash damage against them is not the way to go)
  • How can we improve them in small combat scenarios without making them too strong in harassment? (Mutas are used mostly in combat for picking off units, so how can we lean into that?)

To me, the “surprise Muta switch” was always my favorite part about Mutas, because it emphasizes strategic choice. Opponent went too hard on Robo to counter your Roaches? Hit them with the Muta switch and kill their Immortals. Maybe you even plan out opening with Roach/Hydra to “encourage” certain composition choices so you can hit with the switch after.

So all that said, here are some variables that play with these things:

Damage and weapon speed values. In high numbers, the glaive bounce is very good at shredding workers, but against combat units it isn’t that great except against tiny clumps of low-HP units. If we want to make them worse at harassment and better at unit sniping, one route could be:

  • Increasing the damage on the initial shot, decreasing the rate of fire, and decreasing damage of the glaive bounce.
    Intended result: Fewer Mutas needed for 1- or 2-shotting some combat units, and less damage efficiency against workers because of overkill and slower firing rate. Encourages morphing a handful of them to strike critical combat units, but doesn’t change their susceptibility to splash damage. It does potentially have the same risks as mentioned in the next paragraph.

Damage types. Decreasing overall damage but increasing it against Massive or Armored, etc, could allow them to be used to take out specific targets (with less needed for critical mass against those targets) whilst weakening them against workers. This could be dangerous, though, since it has the potential to invalidate some units/static defenses that are meant to counter Mutas.

Build times and gas costs. If we wanted to encourage easier transitions into Mutas or the ability to just build a handful of them, making the gas cost cheaper and/or the build time faster could make doing so easier/less risky. These are along the lines of some of the changes in the OP. Maybe one of the changes would be enough, maybe a couple would be needed. However, with no other changes, this does buff mass Muta, which I’d like to avoid.

Supply cost. If Mutas are improved as individual units to make them better at lower numbers, increasing the supply cost to 3 instantly makes them worse if they are massed.

Not all of those changes would need to go in at once. One or two could be tested, and if they prove to cause more issues than not, tweak or try other ones.

3 Likes

Sure, lets change muta price to 125/75 and lower spire build time. That would be a great starting point for PTR testing.

So, the 12 mutas needed to beat a missile turret will cost 1100 gas instead of 1400 gas. Those 100 mineral turrets better watch out.

I don’t think this will affect pro play because the cost is still too high to justify not going for hive tech. The bigger deal is the timings, but speed up still won’t matter.

It will make a massive deal for 2 base muta. 25 gas cheaper means with 4 gas income you are hitting a turret-killing quantity of mutas (1400-1100) / 650 = 27 seconds faster. On 3 base, it’s 18 seconds faster. 4 base play, it’s 14 seconds faster. So, for meme builds it would be great, but for pro play (4 base spire) it’s basically irrelevant.

What will probably happen at a pro level is that on large maps, where mutas were already decent, zergs just make more banelings and I’d consider that a very bad idea. They’d be even more prone to do this if the muta’s supply cost were increased since banelings are supply efficient. Another likely outcome is that it would incentivize trading because the mutas are cheaper, which is an advantage, but that advantage caps out faster at max supply, which means it’s a tempo advantage. This would mean zergs would be throwing waves of banelings at the terran, more or less.

Outside of pro play, ZvT is already a pretty interesting matchup. At pro level, nothing will diversify the builds except a nerf to inject. As long as spamming sdsdsdssdsdsd can win premiers, they are going to keep doing it. A drone has guaranteed value, a mutalisk does not, and so it makes no sense to ever make mutalisks until the very last moment before you need them. That means defensive macro aka the same style played on repeat for years and years.

Nerfs to inject are totally impractical and so I don’t think it’s possible to diversify pro play at this point in time in ZvT. ZvP has similar issues because the players are so terrible that making PvZ defense even slightly more complicated would cause Protoss to lose a thousand mmr, which they obviously won’t do. If protoss can’t beat it with f2 amove control, it can’t be allowed in the game. Mutalisks require multiprong and so it’s obviously can’t be allowed.

Another issue is ZvZ and in that matchup mutas are already super OP and oppressive. Cutting 25 gas off the cost of a muta means ZvZ will be nothing but mass mutalisks and I 100% guarantee that outcome.

We can theory craft many different ways, but the changes would need testing in PTR to get feedback from the larger population. All we know is that muta is not viable in current state and something should be done to improve this lackluster unit. Blizzard has PTR for a reason, no harm in testing these changes out.

18 mutas with 1/1 on hotkey before fighting 2 turrets. Terran is out of position. This is very close to an ideal fight. 13 mutas on hotkey afterwards. -500 minerals -500 gas for zerg, -400 minerals for terran. We’re talking about ~2200 gas to be able to beat 4 turrets, but not fast enough to win before reinforcements show up, and certainly not winning in terms of trading efficiency.

Your idea would reduce these loses to -375 gas and -625 minerals. Basically nothing changes. Mutas would still be terrible. You need something that trades at positive efficiency and mutas simply can’t do that. They are so far into the negative, vs mere turrets which aren’t even a hard counter, that they’d require massive buffs to be good. Double their HP and then we can talk. But, we both know this will never happen. Realistically speaking, mutalisks can never be good for the reasons mentioned above. It would break ZvZ, Protoss in the 6500 mmr range don’t have the skill to do midgame scouting, and in TvZ almost every unit terran can make counters mutas to some degree. They have 4 hard counters (ghost, thor, cyclone, marines). Mutalisks were intentionally deleted from the game because the designers never wanted the game to return to mass mutalisk play, and so they put up endless roadblocks and barriers to make 100% certain that mutas weren’t viable.

But, that’s the beauty of the mutalisk. It is now a giga-meme unit. It is the meme unit of meme units. You can use it to flex. Nothing shows dominance like winning a game of starcraft with a unit that is designed to trade negatively vs a missile turret.

Imagine for a second just how upset protoss would be if tempests traded negatively vs turrets. It would be an outrage, there would an uproar, reddit would be in rebellion. But, it’s just a normal day of playing zerg.

Just to put into perspective just how outrageous this is. Imagine if you put 2200 gas into roaches instead. That’s 88 roaches. Now imagine if the terran put 400 minerals into a bunker defense. That’s 2 bunkers with 4 marines. If you think that’s going to beat 88 roaches, you’re living on another planet. It can’t be understated just how trash-tier the mutalisk is. It is truly terrible.

What the mutalisk needs is +2 armor or maybe +100 HP or maybe a cost reduction of -75/-50. The fact that we aren’t talking about these measures tells me everyone here knows it isn’t practical to actually address the issue in any real sense, and they’re right.

This tells me we are still operating under the assumption that balance favors zerg, can’t buff it, toss is underpowered, yada yada aka the stereotypical “balance counsel” opinion of game balance which basically means as long as serral wins in the finals nothing else matters.

The mutalisk is actually a perfect example of why it’s insane to balance around serral. It’s the perfect example. This is what happens when you decide an entire video game should be balanced around 1 guy. You get a situation where 88 roaches can’t win a fight vs 1 bunker. :exploding_head: It really can’t be understated just how badly SC2’s balance has been mismanaged.

I disagree with this. With the proposed changes to Muta in OP w/ new upgrade to add +20 HP, decrease gas cost and improve regen to recover health immediately after taking damage along with reduced spire time will make them a more viable unit. The muta should never be a frontline brawler as that is not what they were designed for, but should excel as a premiere harass unit.

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According to forum logic, allowing a 2200 gas + 2200 mineral investment to trade positively vs a 400 mineral investment would make the muta a “frontline brawler”. The bias against zerg runs deep within the community.

As described, mutas can’t trade sufficiently vs a 2/2 bio push to actually hold onto your fourth base. Whether you like it or not, mutas have to be able to hold onto a fourth base or the gas cost is wasted. Call it what you will – front line brawler or whatever – but that’s how the game works. Hive for 4 armor ultras can keep your fourth alive, and mutas cannot. Mutas are so terrible at trading that an additional +20 HP will make no difference at all. That’s just realistic. Your “buff” would reduce the trading losses caused by mutas, but what you need to win is to not have trading losses at all. A reduction of losses is still a loss.

Let’s not pretend that these buffs are aimed at making the mutalisk viable. This is a stunt to make zerg players feel like they aren’t being bullied while also doing absolutely nothing to affect the balance of the game. Ironically, it shows exactly how the community bullies zerg because a 2200 gas investment trading positively vs 400 minerals is a step too far while they gaslight you that they actually are on your side and want to “buff” the mutalisk. Pick a lane. Are we talking about making the mutalisk viable? Then a 2200 gas investment should annihilate a 400 mineral investment. It’s common sense.

29 vikings vs 16 lings. Who trades better? Vikings, obviously.

11 thors vs 16 lings. Who trades better? Lmao, that’s not even a question.

7 battlecruisers vs 16 lings. Who trades better. It’s just a joke at this point.

The fact that this has been normalized for the mutalisk shows you just how brainwashed people have become. It’s absolutely unreal how bad this unit is and people are like let’s give it +20 hp and -25 gas cost. It’s a nice gesture but ultimately totally useless.

A realistic way to buff the mutalisk would be a 25% increase in attack damage. This would allow a small flock of mutas to be a serious threat to missile turrets while still preserving their vulnerability to splash and that would keep mass mutalisks from snowballing. A small flock would be very good, a large flock would still be bad. +20 hp locked behind a hive upgrade does nothing to adjust the strength of a small flock, while aggravating mass muta issues, while having no impact on the real isse which is keeping your fourth alive while in the 20 muta range.