I have a video of a part of the thread if it helps you remember.
https ://files.catbox.moe/pqtq3a.flv
Wait, didn’t you say that you recorded the entire thing and were going to report the thread? Why do you need me to remind you?
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lol, that’s not how the timeline worked.
He won 1-2 GSLs by perfecting proxies. His 4th GSL victory had no proxies for the whole tournament.
Thinking Maru only won with proxies is blatantly false. A lot of things we talk about are subjective, but Maru 100% won 1-2 GSL’s with no proxies to carry him through.
I can’t believe you think 4 GSL victories in a row is a patch problem, especially since when Maru was winning, he was one of the only Terrans doing it.
However, many zergs are winning around the clock. Maru and Classic were winning a lot for their races compared to the million zerg players running around winning.
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Ok, listen. If Serral and Raynor are 2 of the best players in the world, at a similar level to the very top terrans and Protoss, and Zerg is moderately to slightly OP, they will win a lot. That dosn’t make them patchzergs, because they are very good players. But it doesn’t make Zerg balanced either.
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That’s a gross misrepresentation of my argument. I factually demonstrated that Terrans won tournaments 6x more frequently than zergs, had higher average performance in tournaments, and that this correlated with nothing but race. Maru’s performance was just the cherry on top. His play corresponded closely with very specific strategies (ravens, proxies) and once they were nerfed his performance vanished. When all of terran overperforms at the same time as maru, and maru’s play is hyper-dependent on imba strats, it’s probable that he received a performance boost by playing terran. Contrast that vs Serral, who is winning tournaments across 3 separate version of the game.
Furthermore, he wouldn’t be the first terran player who was boosted by proxies. We already had a Terran player dominate with proxies once in LotV. This is the second (and now third) time they’ve been nerfed. So, we have a terran player who hadn’t even placed well in a tournament in like 2 years abuse a mechanic that is already known to be overpowered, while terran is overperforming in general, and then his performance vanishes into thin air once it’s nerfed, and your conclusion is that he wasn’t boosted?
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They aren’t. They are protected by the region lock while being head and shoulders above all other players in their region. Both Serral and Reynor have been wrecked by koreans. They are MAYBE top 10 in Korea. It’s more likely that they are top 20. If the region lock were removed, they wouldn’t win hardly anything because there would be 20-50 new competitors that are much closer to their skill level with 10-20 exceeding their skill level. Koreans just aren’t given enough opportunities. It’s as simple as that. There are too many bonkers-good players in Korea and not enough tournaments for them all. Zest and Dear are 7k mmr on KR each while Serral is only 6.7k yet how many tournaments have Zest/Dear won combined vs Serral? 0 vs a million.
Here’s the problem with your theory: these two are outliers. They don’t define the trend, they contradict it. Let’s say we are studying the safety of buses and thus looking at the mortality rate of driving buses of people off the cliff. We drive 10,000 buses each holding 50 people off the cliff and only 2 survive. According to you, this is number is just fine even though it has a 99.9996% fatality rate.
so when the koreans showed up to HSC and reynor and serral beat most of them… what’s that?
Innovation went 3-1 vs Serral despite being in a radically different time zone. Stats went 3-1 vs Serral at IEM. Innovation beat Serral 4:3 in the finals of WESG. Dark utterly dismantled Reynor 4-1 at blizzcon. Maru 2-0’d reynor at WCG.
Dark, innovation and stats are pretty small fish compared to the 7k MMR monsters like Zest, Dear, Cure, etc.
you seem to forget that serral went back and 3-0’d inno just after that 3-1…
which is to say, he’s completely on par with top koreans, saying he would be top 10, or 20 at best, is just an insult. he’s at the top of the pack, korea or europe, doesn’t matter.
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Yeah, let’s focus on the time serral beat innovation and ignore literally every other instance I listed. If those matches had happened in reverse, it would have been Serral that was eliminated instead of innovation.
I am sorry, but you are wrong. Zerg players are the most skilled SC2 players.
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I didn’t know that the best players of SC2 struggled to have masters Terran level micro back in 2013-2014. I didn’t know that the best players of SC2 this year don’t train to get through groups of death. I didn’t know that the best players of SC2 thought that they couldn’t afford 100/100 for unlimited scouting until just this year in spite of foreign Terran players stating that it’s really really worth it.
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As if splitting marines and stutter step is hard. It’s almost 2020. Every race has to do that micro plus more. It’s not impressive anymore.
Box clicking zerglings then move commanding them forward is not micro. So no, not every race has to micro just like the others.
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Here are my assumptions: these 2 outliers are roughly on par with the terran and Protoss outliers. Further, for simplicity, why generate hypothetically that there are 2 outliers for each race.
My independent variable is the strength of Zerg. My dependant variable is the % of tournaments they win. My y-intercept when x is the difference in power between Zerg and other races would be 33%.
Now, you may feel free to criticize my assumptions made in this rough approximation, but I also expect justification for the black and white “they must either be patch zergs or superior in every way, no middle ground”.
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Ask the whiners. It is their “logic”.
https://i.imgur.com/dTM6Ojw.png
Where are the protoss and terran outliers?
So in other words…
- Reynor is not an outlier, at least not by this graph
- Explain the usefulness of a graph that doesn’t show which player each dot is connected to, let alone race.
- This table shows Serral’s worst MU is ZvZ, what a surprise…
- Isn’t this table super outdated?
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Which isn’t true in the slightest. Maru played multiple versions of the game as well.
You do know you sound absolutely insane when you insist Maru is merely a patch terran after 4 GSLs and across multiple versions of the game right? I can’t even fathom how you can try and hold that position in the argument.
Look at his first GSL victory, and compare that to his fourth. They are not similar at all. They are based on completely different styles of play. First GSL had a lot of proxy play, his fourth GSL had a lot of macro play.
You must have missed his GSL 3rd and 4th win because he did macro 95% of the time in those games.
There is no way in hell he was boosted. Winning 4 GSLs in a row in Korea is God-like, absolutely God-like. Trying to take that away from Maru because you hate terran is a little much.
I think Serral is a great player, so I don’t know why it hurts your soul to admit Maru is a great terran player.
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The chart is several months outdated. One of the limitations of ELO algorithms is how quickly it can adapt to rapid changes in performance. If you tune it so that it adapts rapidly, it losses accuracy with the more stable players.
https://i.imgur.com/SKTpwKO.png
This is what it would look like if the TCF theory (that Terran is harder to play at the pro level) were true.
It shows quite a bit more than this and utterly obliterates many theories - this is just an example.
This chart shows quite clearly that Serral has the least variability in per-matchup performance of any pro player. Balance issues manifest in increased variability between matchup performances, thus Serral’s performance is the least dependent on balance - another thing proved by this chart.
Contrast that with Byun, who had off the charts TvZ ratings that dwarfed his TvP and TvT ratings.
In which Terran was favored. As soon as proxies and ravens were gone, maru was too.
No need to “fathom” - I detailed the reasons clearly in my prior post on the subject. There is a formidable amount of evidence that proves quite clearly that he received a performance boost from balance.
To deny that his performance was increased through proxies and ravens is unrealistic. He won loads of games on the merits of proxies and mass ravens alone, most of which were victories critical to winning major tournaments. These strategies were overpowered, period, ended up nerfed, period, and maru used these strategies to win key victories, period.
Who has EVER said something this stupid? Oh right, the guy who said Maru was a patch Terran because he won when he was the only Terran in the Round of 8…
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