Then produce correct figures. My math is right. Your figures aren’t. ~throws glitter~
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But they weren’t… if you don’t understand even after I spent my time to help you understand then I’m not sure what else to do.
Anyway, let’s say you are right. You are only right about one scenario, where everyone randomize map select and in a perfect bell curve, the guy that got a 10x DoN is rare. So you say “well that’s life bud”.
The issue is people are selecting them, so the issue of disproportionate DoN is still happening. How does you being right help? How does telling people “hey 
happens bud” helps? It doesn’t lol. Throw all the glitter you like, life must be grand when the issue doesn’t affect you.
Not once did I say that every one randomed. I am saying if YOU randomed and let’s say 20% of the time, you get DoN…Still a one in a million chance of getting it 10 times in a row. I select my own maps cuz I hate a few of them. Mostly Cradle of Death and Scythe of Amon. I prefer DoN, Void Launch, Malwarefare, and Oblivion Express. That being said…The only thing I was arguing on is your biased figures you tried to pass off as fact.
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That’s my point, it did happen 4x in a row. That’s a hard fact… Even if my 4x is a 0.0016%, 1 in a thousand problem, it is still a problem for me. And that 1 in a million 10x guy is still unfortunately a problem for him.
Like I said, great you’re the big man who wants to show off your basic math skills. The issue hasn’t been solved. There’s nothing “biased” about it. The comment was and still is using “10x in a row” as a figure of speech.
I mean by god Xombie, here you are trying to “school me” by showing off basic math and going on and on about “how you’re right and your math has no issue”. Yet, you can’t understand a basic concept as ‘figure of speech’. And rather than letting it all go and say “Oh, I see, I took it literally”, you’d still go on and on about it even now.
Just wow.
Here’s the personal attacks again!
You take everything as an offense when 9/10 people are actually taking time to learn you something.
Somehow you’re so blinded by your own believe you refuse to even consider the other party being right and actually trying to help you…
Ever considered becoming president of the USA? cause they’re missing a guy with before mentioned personality.
Yes people are schooling you cause you obviously need it…
If anyone can’t comprehend basic concepts it’s you, stop being “the victim”, there’s a reason you’re in every single argument on this forums and it’s because your communication is horrible, you’re insulting people for 0 reason and take every bit of advice as a personal offence.
You’re still talking after getting proven wrong…Just wow.
Yes, here it is.
Yes wow.
Two way street is a phrase I like and I wont engage further so as to not join that road. Although I see it happen often enough.
Void thrashing, lock and load, and dead of night are my 3 most played maps by not a huge margin, if you account for the few times i queued for dead of night, pretty much the only map I queued for.
My favorite maps are in order void launch, malwarfare, and dead of night.
Specifically why I like dead of night is a bit of a mystery, I just have a good sense of things. But why it is a quite unique map I think I can sum up easily:
It is one of the only maps that breaks the usual attack patterns, pretty much the only other being miner evac. As in you get attacked outside of the normal attack waves that are predetermined to come at specific times. In most other maps the only forces you fight are either static forces that are there upon loading in or the attack waves. This map also sports the only base economy that is different than the rest, in some sense a 1.5 eco from the start. While this doesnt generally make a difference it can enable some slight differences in build order that result in an army comp that can outperform another typical army comp.
Some of you cite how you have trouble with dead of night on Artanis and I may like to remedy this.
You say you go tempest, and this is basically your first problem. Not only are tempests not the optimal choice versus masses of units, but they are not the best dps choice either. In dead of night there is a very large amount of units to deal with, being the infested, which is typical for a crowd control scenario. Zealots are pseudo crowd control in that they have AoE with their upgrades, using them will benefit you in dealing with the map. If im not mistaken zealots are pretty much artanis’ highest dps unit as well, meaning faster clearing of buildings. Ontop of all of this, the infested have many marine like units which shoot up, making tempests weaker pick as opposed to a ground to antiground unit like a zealot or immortal. Tempests also take time to tech into and have air upgrade priority which on Artanis doesnt include carriers, so tempests are your only upgraded through cyber core option for antiground damage, resulting in a slower to acquire antiground army. All of this makes tempests a suboptimal pick on this map.
Some of you also state reavers as your pick and while they sport good AoE they are best at killing masses of units and not so much buildings. They suffer from the same fate tempests do in that they are slow to tech up and dont offer the best benefit for this map.
While immortals are ok on this map, I dont think they are necessary for Artanis and the best comp for dead of night specifically is somewhere between zealot dragoon and zealot archon.
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Glad to see that the discussion about DoN turning as braindead as the map itself. Gives me a reason to hate the map even more. 
In all seriousness, to me, it’s very clear why DoN is played so much: because it promotes and rewards passive play and iDef much more than any other map.
- Has very long periods where nothing happens at all.
Even says exactly how much time you have to prepare before attacks start coming. Most other maps don’t warn you until you have like 20 seconds left to prepare. - Has generous timings for entrances opening.
First night only one entrance is open. Second night two. Third night 2 entrances open almost at once, but it’s so late that by that time a non-iDef team would have already cleared the map completely and moved on to the next game.
Compare TotP, where you get 2 entrances to open at the time the mission isn’t even halfway through, often having to rely on ally to defend his side. - No need to clear any expansion.
Game makes you play 1 base, so you play 1 base. Even as non-P1 Raynor. There’s no room or resources for much more anyway. - The areas you need to defend have nothing to clear.
You just place your defenses and that’s it. They died during the night? Rebuild everything safely between nights. Void Launch also used to be very popular for iDef people for this reason, but that map has one big “problem” that DoN doesn’t. - No “defend this or you lose” objective in the mission.
You won’t get a situation where your perfect iDef gets completely ignored by Scourges and Nemesis Hybrids flying past everything, or droppods arbitrarily bypassing them, and then killing the Temple. Or Nemesis Hybrids disabling your defenses and shuttles passing safely. Or having to chase trains because your defenses couldn’t kill them in time. - The only real threat to your defenses are Nydus Worms and Stanks.
There are no big attack waves constantly destroying your defenses from afar. No Tempests, Reavers or Siege Tanks to clear your position before you can react. No constant reinforcements of Immortals or Banelings walking straight through the front door.
In fact, unless you get Nydus Worms, if “you def”, you might never see anything other than infested coming at you. - Very late drops that can be hard to notice because they go through areas that are already defended at that point.
Pretty much everything goes through the entrances where your defenses are, only after they are open, and the only thing that can spawn right in the middle of your base (Nydus Worm) does it so late that 99% of the time the game is already over by then, so even the most passive players have difficulty noticing it. - As long as you sit in the base, you avoid most of the biggest annoyances coop has.
No Vipers trolling you. No detectors needed to kill a random Swarm Host or Dark Templar. Not a single hybrid in sight.
Becomes even more apparent on mutations, where base safezones keep you completely safe from things like nukes, orbital strikes, blizzards, mines, or anything of that kind. - You can drag the mission indefinitely.
In fact, you can wall all entrances completely, and (other than your ally being angry at you) you will face no ill effects for that. Well, except The LAG.
So, tl;dr: out of all other maps for iDef and any other passive play, this map requires the least effort, has the most forgiving timings, allows you to avoid many mutators, and doesn’t force you to move out at all. You say “i def” and sit in your base, and still get plenty of kills while enemies come to you.
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Is this such a given?
I just checked and on average my DoN end at 24:20 (or 23mn with lvl 15+). Still on average this is after the end of night 3.
I did have a few allies with whom we had to wait for night 3 and the bonus to arrive but that’s not the norm. I almost never see night 4 but I sure often see the end of night 3. Since I am the common point in all those games it makes me wonder, am I being slow clearing the buildings? Before first night there is barely any opportunity to clean anything but then how far do you go on day 2 to finish cleaning up the next day? Doesn’t it work only if your ally is also very aggressive with his commander (or at least one is able to clear at night)?
Depends on if you have a hyper aggressive ally such as H&H or Zagara. I clear the map except for a few buildings as to wait for the bonus objective with Zagara.
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Well yeah there are some commanders where you definitely can go fast on that map but it’s far from obvious to me that any two commander put together would easily finish by night 3 so I wonder if I am missing something.
You can see based on these descriptions that different players are at different stages with their gameplay. This isn’t a “I’m better than you” situation. This is in fact an exact description of the progression of skills (that every player goes through eventually).
Once you’ve learned how to clear DoN before N3, you won’t really stick around to defend N3 for “shiz and gigz”. To such players, it would be an entirely waste of time. Similarly, a player who consistently finish by end of N3 won’t stick around waiting for N4, and so on and so forth. At least majority of players are like this.
On the flip side (as mentioned before), for a player who can’t see ending DoN before N3 as a norm, said player would feel (and rightfully so) they are doing their part. However, to their partner who is consistently finishing prior to N3, this ally is simply slowing down. This is why we see debate over and over again on these “idef” allies. Or those previously presented premises of “defender’s advantage” on this map - why it is a delusion (objectively speaking anyway).
No, this isn’t a “you gotta play this way” comment. It is to highlight the importance of perspectives to differently skilled players. Understanding these perspectives help understanding why DoN as a whole.
Doesn’t that depend on the ally as well or can people reliably clear the map solo before third night?
It could also just be about perception bias or different commanders (Zag, Zeratul or H&H being very fast). I am curious how long last brutal pub DoN games on average for the people talking here.
[Edit] I just looked at speed runners solo and Zeratul finished the map in 10:30 oO’, before the second night. On the other hand Alarak over 25mn for full clear … this one may need to be redone a bit faster. Several between 16 and 18 (without full clear). The slow ones (20mn+ and up to over 26 mn) Fenix (barely over 20), Swann, Tychus, Alarak, Artanis, Karax, Stukov.
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Yes, of course. Two people who can clear by N3 will similarly build appropriately for their commander towards that goal. Such as HH going for Strike Platform, banking Banes, actively using hero, etc.) It would guarantee your victory before N3 undoubtedly.
I’m no super pro (such as the likes of LilA for example), but based on my own experience your ally’s contribution can be as little as defending N2 main entrance and depending on your commander not even that.
Commanders such as Raynor, Kerrigan, Zagara, Vorazun, Abathur, Alarak, Nova, Fenix, Dehaka, HH, Tychus, Zeratul, Stetmann, and Mensgk are once I’m generally needing little help. That is not to say the others can’t do it (with probably exception given to Artanis and such). Where those fall slightly short though, they generally have plenty of defensive mechanic to compensate (and I don’t mean static defense).
And yes absolutely this
And many needs updating but not many devoted speedrun to fill every record again with new prestige.
Also, keep in mind we’re not talking about solo’ing without your ally strictly in the sense of “true solo” and definitely not with every prestige to meet that prior to N3 mark.
However, the essence of what we are discussing is very much true. That most players should have no issue doing DoN before N3 (as most allies are at least able to deal with 1 entrance). And it is this very issue of personal experience and perception vs objectively measured times that people need to be aware of in this particular discussion. Too many on the forum gets bum hurt when their skill is brought to question. Instead we should all be asking ourselves, "if several people are saying N3 is very much normal, why isn’t mine games like that? Again, keep in mind (nobody here is asking everyone to play like a speedrunner and doing DoN before N2 
).
It depends, I mostly hear them complaining about idef ally slowing them down (which is true). When I read that I see more of an excuse as to why the games are slowed and how they expect the game to end before N3 if their ally was good (which may be the case or maybe not since this is very much an hypothetical scenario).
Hence why I say I am curious as to how long those games last on average for people talking here. If on average their games last 18mn30 or less on DoN and they play brutal pub then clearly they can expect their games to end before N3 because they often do. Else I guess they are mostly dreaming about having good coop partners.
Edit: With Alarak P3 and Zeratul ok, it isn’t hard to finish before N3 even with an ally who doesn’t do much or kill any building. But with the others?
Most of my games end between N3 and N4.
I guess i might be beating a dead horse here or something but here i go…
So i recently started leveling Fenix and really like playing him, I’ve decided to prestige him to P2, so i can try out Network administrator and so far I’m (mostly) enjoying the leveling.
But god damn… DoN is so frequent on both Hard and Brutal, that it’s becoming obnoxious. According to Maguro’s overlay, 20%-25% of the maps i play are on DoN (out of 15 maps) and It’s super easy to see that tons of people specifically queue for this map, if i check my match history, most of the people i match with on DoN almost exclusively queue it.
And that’s not all, thanks to Maguro’s overlay, i can easily check kills/infested structures destroyed with the players that hard-queue DoN exclusively and man, so many turtlers that hardly contribute to anything but sitting in their base and ‘‘Idef’ing’’.
Now granted It’s not all bad, It’s a decent map for Fenix and i can clear stuff pretty quick. I also had the amazing experience of a Karax sending energizers to follow and buff my army as i cleared the map.
Now i understand that nothing is likely to change here, but i really think it’s a shame that it’s getting to the point, where im tempted to just start leaving some of the DoN games that i get matched with.
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