Surprised No Discussion on Vorazun P2

Co-op Missions Discussion
21

It should be triggered by any ability that

  1. Stops enemy movement
    OR
  2. Stops enemy attack
    OR
  3. is Confusion

(so Fungal growth, Fear, Arcturus Tank Stun, Fenix Stasis/Mojo stun, Zeratul Monolith, Immobilization Wave, Graviton Beam, Disabling cloud, Nova Hellbat/Goliath stuns, Alarak stun attack, Kerrigan hero P2/P3, Fungal Snare, Ultra/mech charge stun, Tyrranosaur stun…cant think of any others right now)

If including time stop is too much (400 global nonkilling damage) the penalty could change to Shorter/removed timestop

That could be the way to make it work… confusion to kill units, MC some to kill buildings

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22

Yes they do stack because all mentioned abilities (Void Stasis/Disruption Web/Confusion etc) share one same behaviour/effects tweaking them is enough to affect all.

Your humble opinion is right in my opinion, I think they didn’t stack the prestige in fear of her becoming too OP, but the reality is that this prestige is unpopular because it is underpowered.

I’m not sure if that duration is long enough, Brutal time pass too quickly compare to normal times.

I think they already do.
BTW Yes on Black hole but no on Time Stop.
I dare say, 20 seconds of total immobilisation of global wide (virtual invulnerability) and increased speed/regen is powerful enough.

Prestige 2 is Vorazun exclusive isn’t it? Do Vega’s confusion ability deal damage from Vorazun’s prestige?

To make it more balanced I think Time Stop must deal 50% Global wide slow instead of complete stop.

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23

I don’t think ally abilities give the effect unless they are on that list
(ie Vega’s Confusion yes, but not Disabling cloud…even though it is like disruption web)

I think it should apply to all of those (partially since it makes the ability simpler)… and that it should also apply to Time stop… if it applying to time stop is too powerful… than change the penalty to disable Time Stop

24

I have made demo video about how to improve Vorazun’s Prestige 2.
Link: Starcraft 2 Improving Vorazun's Prestige 2: Withering Siphon - YouTube

I’ve tested them on MM, it seems as a damage dealer, they are not too shabby once you gather enough forces but the early stage leave your forces weak in dealing without their team.
Structure breaking was especially bad.

I made 2 improvements

  1. Make them stackable by 2 (3 times was just ridiculously OP (60 damage per sec))
  2. Black Holes gains Prestige 2 powers

By employing the Prestige damage to Black hole, it makes it easier for Vorazun to muster her forces large enough to direct an assault.

25

Nice Vid. Structure damage seems awful. Adding P2 powers to BH would help.

Wrt…

Still makes her worst problem worse. (Which I think is worse than taking away the biggest strength - like Artanis P3 Arkship Com… - takes away Guardian Shell but gives an option for fast expand, at the expense of chrono mastery. I still wouldn’t take it but it’s not as bad as what’s happening with Vora’s P2.)

Potential fix but without stacking still meh and not a positive prestige - Let units have full damage and all the buffs you mention above; and take away Time Stop. This would be the correct setting for Lock n Load :roll_eyes:

26

I really like this idea

27

Anything that’s trapped in a Blackhole dies, anything that is frozen during Time Stop dies (where the army is anyway). A global DoT regardless of any meaningful damage is way to overpowered and make for boring gameplay - sit back mass up, cast TS repeatedly then push out with next to 0 resistance. I don’t like that at all.

Focusing on spellcasters as P2 seems like the right idea. But there are several things to be addressed for it to work:

  1. Dark Archons are not as cheap as High Templar’s. So you can’t just give it a non-lethal 20DoT Confusion and expect it to be just as useful. Mind Control has high energy cost for even worse value of -50% damage units that still has 0/0/0 as upgrades.
  2. Disruption Web helps against ground wonderfully already by disabling but Vorazun’s DTs doesn’t have any issue dealing with ground units ever. Now Corsair’s tickle damage becomes gentle breeze damage.
  3. Oracle holds a fairy niche and fun position in her arsenal by doing the Stasis and still able to attack using its beam but at the cost and expertise of managing macro and energy. Unfortunately again, this suffer the same issue as Disruption Web, it boosts anti-ground for no real need.
  4. The lack of AA makes Vorazun feels bad as is in P0 against highly armored air composition (rushing upgrades is already difficult), but P2 now makes that even with upgrades the entire air roster is useless. So how to deal with it? Blackhole + Confusion, great right? Nope. Anything trapped in Blackhole dies to it in general. Energy regen isn’t fast enough to allow BH every engagement at all.

The simplest solution is to increase her top bar energy regeneration by 2x. This is a very poor but functional band-aid solution (not a fan but it’ll work).

Ideally, allow Disruption Web to affect air. So with proper management, engagement becomes much better with the massive handicap of -50% damage. This though doesn’t address against objectives (unless of course these spells are made to deal said lack of damage to compensate).

28

all units get cloak, but no more Dark Templars or Corsair.

29

Well, technically enemy health are depleted but not killed. IMO this Prestige is for depleting the health of mass enemies (but you need to have your armies) and overwhelming them.

I think the major problem with this Prestige is:

  1. You are more vulnerable in the beginning (Thus the Black hole with prestige 2)
  2. Objectives are hard to kill (Thus the 2 stack)
  3. Structure is actually more harder to destroy (200 per 10 sec is like scratching thus the 2 stacks).

I’ve considered these problems and made the video above.

I’m not sure what exactly you are saying here, you are pointing out the threat of heavy air composition, then saying the solution to counter it, then denying your own solution (Blackhole + Confusion, great right? Nope.)? IMO if Prestige 2 damage can be implemented in Black hole this will be very useful against very heavy air compositions.

Actually I proposed that the Strike from the Shadow talent to benefit Solar Regen by 50% at default.
With this upgrade, 25.4 Solar Energy will be gained per minute.

30

Think you misunderstood it with your discussion with someone else. What I’m saying here is anything you trap with Blackhole or TS will die because your army will follow right away to kill it. So adding the drain effect like Krik proposed makes no difference. Blackhole already debuff armor as is too.

Yes exactly doing just that. Corsairs work terribly until you have upgrades and have made multiples. Even then against armored air units like BC, it has a tough time. So as P2, the current solution is only left with Blackhole + Confusion, as it is the only spell that targets air.

The more I read your post, the more I get the feeling you are confusing the premise of your video proposal to what I’m actually discussing.

On that note, giving Blackhole and/or TS the same P2 drain is a bad idea period. It entirely removes the need to use Confusion, Disruption Web, Stasis Ward. So I am entirely against this idea (just for clarification). Making that change would effectively remove the steps and turn it into “simply blackhole” then attack.

Right, this can work but our solution differ on that I still believe giving more Blackhole to help mitigate damage and allow forced stack just so you can cast Confusion. It’s super inelegance is why I don’t like it.

With your Blackhole applies drain change, this will then become more broken than anything (imo). Basically P0 is changed to P2, where P2 is “for -50% damage, you drain units trapped in Blackhole 20/s DoT”.

The core issue against structures is not addressed but I know you mentioned the 200/s against structures (which I agree, even then is still very little), not to mention other objectives are heroics, which you’d have to apply a separate debuff mechanic, otherwise Hybrids die in seconds with a single Blackhole lol.

TLDR: P2 seems to be a prestige that buffs or features spellcasters. This is a good idea in its concept, as it promotes and alters main strategy into more niche territory. Any changes proposed (imho) should try to preserve this and not remove the need to spell cast.

31

To be truthful I only played this prestige few times so I don’t have full grasps of the problem (thus I can only point out some things).

Ah, yeah spells aren’t very effective against objectives due to structure/heroic tags (Disruption Webs/Void Stasis are more effective against them).
I’m sure granting all spells to affect all tags would have yield some compensation (Thus the stacks).
I was thinking of have Dark Templar’s Void Stasis to stack even under stasis so they can deal damage better.

Hmmmm, Okay I guess adding Prestige 2 damage to Black Hole could be too powerful, but what about stacking 2 abilities?

I think stacking 2 of it is justified since 50% damage from combat units aren’t really compensated.

32

they should at least give all of vorazun’s units double dmg vs Structures/Objectives if they intend on keeping this prestige more or less the same.

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33

The stacked damage isn’t necessary. I can see where/why this would be the go to solution, logically speaking though.

So to give some gameplay as P2 stands right now. The player can decorate their ground army with a few Dark Archons, each engagement is preceded with Blackhole to trap the wave/base, cast Confusion and allow 2-3 seconds of DoT to take effect, then move in to wipe what’s left. As it stands, not many units except the usual bulky few doesn’t reach close to 1 HP (or at least red). Confusion also allows enemy to target each other, which does some work for the player by killing each other.

So the issues to be solved are:

  1. Blackhole is limited during leveling and remains so even at mastery, as it isn’t cheaper to cast (unlike P1’s DP). So the superficial solution can be either increase top bar energy regeneration or energy cost reduction via this prestige, in order to allow more “Blackhole-to-Confusion-engagement”.
  2. Objective damage vastly hindered by -50% damage disadvantage. There is no real elegant solution I can think of (or seen others propose). Even the “let spells deal dmg to structure” is not effective enough, as the damage is simply too insignificant compare to an army’s sustained damage.

Following this set of logic/issues, we can see there may be a possibility in adjusting the DoT’s coverage in terms of:

  • Energy cost
  • Repeatability
  • DPS
    Basically, if there’s enough utility given to the player, enough enemy units (covering 95% or so) can be dealt with spells. This allows an opening to still keep the (quite literally) biggest nerf disadvantage of coop of -50% in check. The weakened army, no longer needing to deal with waves/base defence, get to move in far quicker, far free-er to deal the weakened damage to objectives… all in an attempt to keep pace of the mission.
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34

Maybe, just maybe the Devs can replace the -50% damage disadvantage with “disabled time stop and Dark Pylon (or Black Hole)” as a whole (Prestige 1 is clearly for Dark Pylon).

Ugh, I just don’t know, we’ll see how the Devs will handle it.

35

If they are to disable time stop, a bigger incentive in advantage would have to ensue.

I imagine most people would trash it even more without TS :joy:

36

Couple questions.

If an enemy dies to Confusion, does the player get kill credit in the score screen?

Do Photon Cannons get -50% damage?

In theory both answers are no, just want to make sure.

Edit: Also I’m pretty sure Mind Controlled units are receiving -50% damage.

37

Messing around with this prestige and all the upgrades it requires to utilize it makes me realize Vorazun could really use a reduction in some of her research costs.

Vorazun already has probably the slowest ramp up. It feels even slower with this Prestige, even when just trying to pump out Zealots with stun ASAP. With the -50% damage dealt it still feels like DTs are required to do any worthwhile damage. Confusion is definitely the best part of this prestige but Dark Archons are expensive, and honestly kinda squishy? If you’re relying on them for anti-air, those air units are going to ignore everything else and only attack your DAs. And what do you do about airborne hybrid? You can’t Confuse or Mind Control them, your Zealots can’t hit or stun them, Stasis Ward nor Void Stasis NOR Disruption Web can hit air… actually it’s a bit weird Void Statis can’t target air. Your only options are Stalkers, Void Rays (both of which have nothing that benefit from the Prestige but still get -50% damage dealt) and Corsairs which are meh on the damage side already. So pretty much what happens is you sit there shooting pebbles at air hybrid while they kill you and you literally can’t do anything about it except run lol.

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38

Considering all the thoughts here’s my ideal change

  1. effect boosted to 30 dps
  2. Black Hole also applies the effect
  3. Attacking a structure with your units applies the effect for 2 seconds (for rock breaking)
  4. you get +100% damage v. heroic/objectives (so they take normal damage)
  5. Stasis traps are invulnerable

That way Confusion/black hole/Stasis traps all work v. air, you have no penalty v. objectives, and you can clear early buildings fairly easy

39

Nope, they function the same. During leveling I had to use it out of necessity to compensate against some compositions and some maps.

As for the score screen, I’m honestly not sure. I do know confused enemy will kill each other and that helps. And it’s fun to see.

40

I have an idea. What if this prestige 2 enable all Vorazun weapons to deal “Spell” damage?

Spell damage do not get affected by armour points.
At least this will give some remedy to poor weapon damage.

I know decreased damage is a trade off of wide area spell damages but half damage is a huge blow regardless.

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