Vikings aren’t meant to fight mutas. Pretty much everything counters mutas, let’s not make vikings do so too.
I would even go so far as Mutas are probably the most countered unit in the game.
oh trust me i dont want them to counter muta, and you seem to miss the entire point of the matter. they need to be better at the job there suppose to do so that ghost dont need to pick up the slack, allow ghost to be nerfed. frankly unless they outright super buff the vikes theyd never counter muta period. mutas are too fast for them to stay out of range and potshot them. if they were better at killing carriers and bcs then ghost wouldnt need to be so overpowered.
i just see it as the only unit that you could tweek a bit to pick up the slack of the ghost, where the problem lies of the ghost being totally op.
That is not quite right.
- Vikings lose to Phoenixes, and they occasionally lose to Corruptors (it depends on the army size and how they acquire targets).
- Vikings will beat Void Rays, Liberators, and Battlecruisers with a little kiting or splitting micro.
- Vikings will beat Carriers, Mutalisks, and Tempests without micro; although Mutalisks can simply avoid them.
Maybe, but I think that weakening Parasitic Bomb a bit would have a similar effect. There might be space to buff Vikings a tiny bit without causing problems (maybe +1 anti-armor damage at most), but I think it’s better to avoid that option.
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vikes never beat muta bud, your wrong about that, same with everything you just said, void rays are faster then vikes and as soon as they catch them there dead, period. libs again too fast for vikings and the splash buildup of mass libs descimates almost every air unit in the game, so your full bs there as well. In a HEAD TO HEAD fight against bc they lose every time, you only win the fight with sufficent numbers and if you catch the bc on warp cooldown, other wise if those bc get ontop the vikes again the vikes fold like a wet noodle. carriers please, again in a head to head fight they get annialated, the only way you beat carriers is the same way you beat bcs, by stay away and using your range. if the carriers are ontop of your base yours stuck fighting head to head and vikes will always loose with out really good micro. ps i already said they lose to phenix so not sure why you need to even put that in there.
I literally just tested this. The Vikings win on equal supply. The Vikings can’t “catch” Mutalisks, but they still defeat them if the Zerg player decides to fight.
Void Rays only beat Vikings if they are overcharged, and overcharged Void Rays are slower than Vikings. You have to be smart enough to know when to kite, but you will win that one.
Split. Vikings have the range to split against Liberators.
Kite.
False. Vikings used to require target-fire micro because of the Interceptors, but now they don’t even require that. If the Vikings are in range to attack the Carriers, they will win on a-move.
Because I was providing a more in-depth analysis on which units Vikings actually beat and vice-versa. Corruptors are a wash; Mutalisks get beaten by Vikings, at least on equal supply in the 12 supply to 40 supply range; and most other air units will lose to Vikings if the correct micro is used. That isn’t to say that there isn’t room to buff Vikings at all, but they perform better than you are making it out to be.
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bs, i can show you countless replays of me using half the army of the vikes and decimating them just by jumping on top of them and stutter stepping and thats not hard to do at all when there so slow.
again you just proved my point, if they get caught there dead, voids might be slow when they are overcharged but its allready too late if there on top of the vikes.
again your proving my point, libs are faster than vikes, once they get caught there dead.
again your proving my point that vikes cant beat them in a head to head fight, if bcs teleport ontop of the vikes there dead, the only way you win against bcs is using your range avantage and picking them off, which again ive already stated this, if they have warp ready not only can they teleport ontop of the vikes, but they can teleport away. in a head to head fight they still lose every time. THE KEY WORDS HERE ARE HEAD TO HEAD.
yeah bud amove into carriers and see how that works out for yah. i guarantee it wont come out the way you think it will.
It doesn’t matter what kind of micro you do with the Mutalisks. They have to be within Viking range to attack, and the Vikings will win that fight, albeit by a tight margin.
No, it’s not. You have time to get out.
Again, split. This is a case where you split your forces rather than trying to kite. The Vikings have a 4-range advantage that they can utilize to spread out.
Again, this is something you can actually test rather than asserting. Vikings beat Carriers on equal supply. They only lose if the Vikings start the fight damaged or if something else interferes (like Storm) and the Terran player doesn’t account for it (EMP, etc).
Your assessment of the Viking’s strength seems very far off.
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ok you seem to misunderstand when i say jump on top of things. I dont mean get in range and then shoot, i mean litterally on top of the vikes, as in touching, they are too slow to run from all of them units that you say they beat and are easily caught. once that happens vikes are done period. in all your scenarios were they win there at the range, and yes viking will win if you play like that. However when you get directly on top of them its over they cant get away fast enough and fold like a wet noodle.
also you seem to be missing the entire point of what im trying to get across. If vikes were better at dealing with the units that ghost are meant for I.E bcs and carriers then ghost wouldnt need to be as op. and with a little tweek to there penguin form can be better at dealing with ultras and archons. Im not saying tweek them against the small units like mutas libs and so on, but if they were a bit better at dealing with bcs and carriers and had there ground tweeked to deal with ultras and archons then ghost could be nerfed drastically. Im only saying this cause its the only unit that really makes sence to tweek to deal with those sort of things better to allow the ghost to be nerfed.
OK:
- Mutalisks – Doesn’t matter.
- Battlecruisers: I tested Yamato on the Vikings followed by a Tactical Jump right on top of the Vikings. The Vikings were able to escape and start kiting. I tried this maneuver 2 separate ways. Method 1 was to start moving the Vikings immediately when the Battlecruisers started the teleport. Method 2 was to start moving the Vikings after the teleport finished. Method 2 was much rougher on the Vikings, but they still won.
- Void Rays: They took more losses on the way in, and still lost after Overcharge when the Vikings started kiting.
Ghosts aren’t used for Battlecruisers and Carriers. They are used for casters, Brood Lords, Ultralisks, the occasional Lurker or Archon, and some other biological units.
Out of the list of units Ghosts counter, a Viking buff would only affect Brood Lords, Corruptors, and some aerial casters. I doubt that Vikings could gain anything significant enough against ground to affect the need for Ghosts against ground-based casters or other units that are currently kept in check with EMP or Steady-targeting.
emp would have to be something to stay, taking it away out right would drasticaly kill tvp, but if it did like half the damage that could be something that actually works, or at least lowering the damage a bit. same with snipe damage for that matter. kinda rediculous you can one shot most units in the game. let alone haveing nukes and emp. i understand why its there cause alot of units the terran has just dont cut it for other stuff but at the same time its just way too versatile of a unit.
also by no means am i a terran player requesting changes to my race, i strictly play zerg, but i dont have to play terran to see that the race has problems that need to be addressed if the ghost is outright nerfed in a magor way. I just dont see any of there other units really doing the job to fill the role better with out tweeking alot of them to accomdate what the ghost will lack in after a nerf.
yes im a blasphemer, a zerg defending terrans and campaining for there change. omgziz
I don’t think EMP’s damage needs to be reduced. However, if it had to be reduced, I think that changing it to deal the same net shield damage over time (weakens spell stacking) would be reasonable. Increasing the Ghost’s supply cost is also an option, and Steady-Targeting’s damage could potentially be split into an immediate burst with the rest of the damage dealt over time, meaning that spamming the spell on the same unit deals less damage than if you wait for the first spell to wear off.
Moving on. A major reason why the Ghost (and Steady-Targeting in particular) is needed in TvZ is that Vipers or Infestors can basically hard-counter most units that Terran needs to deal with Zerg’s late-game. EMP isn’t very effective against Vipers because of consume, so Steady-Targeting is needed against them, and Steady-Taregeting is also needed against units like Ultralisks or Brood Lords when Parasitic Bomb or Blinding Cloud renders the rest of the Terran army useless. I suspect that any significant Ghost nerf would probably require some nerfs to the Viper rather than buffs to other Terran units.
i wouldnt mind them nerfing viper, i dont really use them much myself. Half the time i make them i forget i did and they fly straight to there death ( which my god cant we get a freaking basic attack, same with infestors, i wouldnt even give a dang if it did half a damage point, something to stop them from running straght to there death). as far as the emp over time that could be intersting, or even emp being like storm where you can move out of the area.
I am not certain if the balance team would go for it, but I believe that nerfing the Viper and Ghost somewhat would be better for the game than having the current Ghost.
I have a random tweak mod where I did that, alongside a number of other changes. Frankly, I think all casters should have at least a weak auto-attack like the High Templar to prevent suicides. It is a good QOL change for lower level players that shouldn’t cause any problems on the higher end of the ladder and tournaments.
The energy drain would have to remain instant for EMP to remain effective as an anti-caster spell, but my thought is that the shield damage component sticks to the target like Fungal, dealing 25 shield damage on impact and dealing 25 more shield damage periodically, 3 times over the next few seconds for the same total damage.
EMP can still be double-tapped to disable casters, but doing that on a shielded unit can waste shield damage, the same way that preemptively reapplying Fungal to units also wastes damage. Attacking a shielded unit during EMP may also waste some damage, since the unit may still have shields and EMP won’t spill over into health.
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I think if Ghost was gonna be nerfed, I agree with Pig’s take on either just making them 3 supply, or reducing their straight combat effectiveness. Leave their spells as is, so they’re still really good spellcasters, but you can either nerf the Terran’s effective maxout strength by upping their supply cost, or nerf their ability to just fight units head to head (which no other spellcaster can really do)
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Yeah, my brother has that same opinion.
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Artosis comments on the patch.
Note that these comments are about 10 days old at this point so his position may have evolved a bit. He feels that Zerg is getting too many buffs but generally thinks there are cool ideas in the patch. I loved his comments about mass queen strategies. I hate mass queen myself and I’d delete the queen if I were in charge. Queens greatly overshadow the rest of zerg and the rest of zerg is very interesting while mass queen is very boring. I was impressed by his intuitions on how the ultralisk is better defensively and worse offensively. I also was impressed by his understanding of microbial shroud and why it doesn’t work.
I’d personally roll with the idea of limiting 1 premier tournament win per race per person per year. So Serral can win 1 premier as Zerg but if he wants to win 2 he needs to switch races. This would encourage the top pro players to stop gatekeeping premier tournaments with their main race. But, I like that he’s considering the possibility that this isn’t a balance issue or at least that it’s not an issue that’s capable of being fixed without deleterious effects elsewhere.
no, absolutely not. frankly as much as a could care less about the pros and tourneys, this is bar far one of the most idiotic ideas ive ever heard. Forcing people to off race just to play other tourney isnt just wrong on so many levels, but down right absurd. That would be like telling people they cant go into the grocery store and buy the same item twice cause they already bought it. Even if you were to make a change like this youd still see the same people in the tourneys for the most part cause most of the pros know how to play the other races just as much as they do there own. Just because they prefer one race over another doesnt mean that they cant play other races just as good. If anyone here even remotely thinks that, your insane. Theres a reason why pros are pros, and it aint because there a master of one race.
By the way terranic, just played a game on stream of me absolutely destroying vikes. you can come check it out if you like on twitch @ xx_toxic_trash_xx, about 30 min into the latest one.
Im so tempted to write username checks out.
But a plat 3v3 match is hardly worth anything in a discussion of whats good or not.
At that level you could go for a “lotv 6 pool” where you pull your initial 6 workers to attack, then build a “6 pool” and then proceed to attack with drones and lings.
I can win with it, doesnt mean its viable or in the slightest good. You could go for all kinds of banana style and still win even tho its not good at all. And 3v3 is a whole other topic compared to 1v1.
Were the Vikings pre-damaged, behind on upgrades, out-supplied, or hit by an AOE spell like Fungal or Storm?
Also, can you clip that particular video?