If it weren’t, you wouldn’t see colossi attacking refineries. Colossi attack refineries, therefore micro is hard. I miss the wings of liberty days when forcefields and colossi micro made protoss hard. One missed forcefield and you get overrun by a million roaches. Now it’s turtle over cannons with carrier tempest storm and wait for the zerg to leave. Boring!
not only that, you really gotta target fire, if you’re protoss placing your AOE correctly is essential, specially vs terran, if your colossi are attacking marauders you will lose every fight. Unless you’re microing another AOE or force fields to get an edge, the colossi target fire is the priority, also you mentioned, the stutter step is important vs vikings and no terran fight colossi without vikings. Every tvp with colossi the protoss will be touching the colossi individually.
Ofc not as intensive vs zerg and protoss but we don’t use colossi in these matchups as much anyways.
To fix this trash of game all sieg units need same range
Main problem Terran has 13 ground and toss has 13 air.
Collussus gets 10 range without upgrade
Ravagers gets 10 range
Lurkers gets 10 range lose stealth until hive tech.
Siege tanks only gets 10 range but lose friendly fire. (This was only useful when IT was still around
Each of those suggestions is problematic for multiple reasons.
For one, Lurkers would be flat out better than Tanks at all levels of play. Lurker splash covers a larger area, Lurkers do full damage to everything they hit, Lurkers are significantly more mobile, Lurkers can be massed much faster than Tanks because of Larva, etc.
Siege Tanks would also get hard-countered by Ravagers to such an extent that no one would ever make them. Currently, Ravagers are a very strong counter to Tanks when the Tank count is low, and the Ravagers start to fall off as the Tank count increases. This fall off only happens because of the Siege Tank’s longer range, which allows them to pick off some of the Ravagers before they cast their Biles. However, Zerg doesn’t need Ravagers to counter large numbers of Tanks, because Vipers and Brood Lords will fill that role even better at Hive Tech.
10 range Colossus would likely be too strong in TvP, and more difficult to counter with Vikings. It isn’t impossible to balance Colossus with that range, but I don’t see any reason to try it.
No. Siege Tanks are far too slow, too immobile, and too slow to produce to be effective with a range decrease.
You are also flat out wrong about the importance of friendly-fire for balancing Tanks. Friendly-fire frequently kicks in when Chargelots, speedlings, Brood Lords, Swarm Hosts, or Ultralisks are on the field. Even Terran players often make use of friendly-fire against each-other in TvT whenever they are able to (drops or landing Vikings on units, charges with split Bio forces or Hellions, etc). So, removing friendly-fire from Siege Tanks is not a good idea.
3 Likes
Numbers can be played with if need be, but yes I can support something like this.
1 Like
Main problem is range difference it gives massive advantage 13 range vs 8 and later to 10.
Friendly fire is small advantage but it would no longer needed if reduce range from 13 to 10.
Lurkers the only problem is how aoe so u can argue that looks good on paper but garbage in practical.
One minimal range on Terran is 5 so u can say 5 extra aoe but it can be dodge unlike siege tank.
Plus’s mass produce is through hydras so there extra delay plus’s your in 2 to 3 min lead so you can have extra siege factories all ready pumping out siege tank.
I rather have better units then relying on enemy to kill it self.
I don’t agree. a lot of what you say is only partially true and very one-sided.
Example concave in these situations tanks are better. further point to linen damage you can’t always use it completely, depending on the range of the opponents.
And lurkers have the zerg attack… long animation for everything.
and then the “zerg has larvae” but forgets that lurkers have 2 hive upgrade and a longer tec path. compared to tank who have full strength much earlier in the game.
10 range tank would be a big buff for roach/ Ravager play style and timing attack.
and influence on late game efficiency.
And that is not a problem at all. Siege Tanks are far less mobile than Lurkers and Ravagers, so they need the extra range and firepower to be competitive. The overall splash area of Siege Tanks is also lower than Lurkers, so even though Tanks are better against individual targets, Lurkers are still better in a number of situations.
Siege Tanks are so immobile that it is ridiculous to balance them without high burst and range. They simply wouldn’t be useful enough to justify using.
Lurkers are effective enough against ground that they more or less force Protoss into Skytoss. They are better than Siege Tanks despite the range difference.
Doesn’t matter. Zerg can mass produce units in ridiculous numbers. There is no way that Terran can keep up with that, even with the additional time needed to morph a Hydralisk to a Lurker.
1 Like
Tanks are immobile, so the opponent is usually the one who decides how to engage. You can try to setup a concave, but the opponent can just attack the edge of it.
Almost all Zerg units have upgrades to compensate for the fact that they can mass-produce units on the fly after building a single tech structure. That still does not justify making Zerg units (Lurkers or otherwise) significantly more powerful than their Terran/Protoss counterparts.
This would be such an extreme buff to Roach-Ravager that Tanks would be obsolete, and Roach Ravager does not need such a buff.
2 Likes
Honestly, I don’t think that roach ravenger needs a buff. You can just bile everything down. Plus, having tank range be 10 would make them horrible against so many other units. Although I do agree that the tank is a pretty good unit
1 Like
You think 10 range buff but right now they are useless once wall siege tanks.
So your biased is that they might have ability to attack siege line without to go to viper.
See with this blind mind set no wonder Zerg lost alot good players.
Right now Ravagers no late game because mass siege tanks wipe them out.
Your mistake is thinking that Ravagers were designed to be a late-game unit in the first place. They were not. Not even close.
I’m not even sure this was English.
I think you were saying that they’re no longer useful when there is a wall of siege tanks? Which, yeah, I’d expect that to be the case considering how much faster Ravagers produce, and how much earlier Ravagers are available.
Siege tanks are both more expensive and slower to produce than Ravagers are, I’d expect them to be stronger than Ravagers.
Frankly it’s still astounding to me that Ravagers are neither armoured nor light units.
Believe it or not, they still do fairly well vs Siege tanks if you get blinding cloud. But I realise you just want to have free wins everywhere you look - I’ve learned not to expect anything particularly intelligent from you with regards to your opinions on balance, so I can’t say I’m particularly surprised.
1 Like
Siege Tanks have to reach a certain critical mass before Ravagers start to fall off against them, and by then you can often access Vipers that shut Tanks down even harder (especially if used in conjunction with Ravagers). There is absolutely no reason for Ravagers to be buffed (directly or indirectly) against Siege Tanks.
Tanks were practically useless as a zone control unit in LOTV up to patch 3.8.0 in part because of the introduction of Ravagers.
Furthermore, it is ridiculous to assume that all “siege” units should have the same range without accounting for other factors like durability, firepower, and mobility. Units are balanced with those other attributes in mind. If a unit is very fast (like the Ravager), then it has to lose out stats elsewhere (such as damage, cooldown, range, etc). Siege Tanks as a unit sacrifice pretty much all of their stats for range and firepower in siege mode. That is why they outrange most other siege units, and that is why they hit so hard.
4 Likes
I didn’t know we were talking late game, if it’s late game, then yeah, you have vipers with blinding cloud and abduct. It is a bit micro intensive, but it works great. I was thinking of the early game, and bile works great if they just have a couple tanks
I think that the Baneling, Ravager, Ghost, and Archon as units have more interesting effects on the game for their lacking a weakness tag. The latter three units have some issue that makes leaning on them as an army unit very difficult, in addition to their price, so the tagless nature mostly lets them avoid the problem that hurt the Sentry in beta nerfs where they’re expensive and get countered by what the opponent’s already wanting to build because it’s generically strong.
The Queen not getting totally ruined by Adepts/Oracles/Hellions nor Immortals/Siege Tanks/Marauders is fairly important and being tagless is a nice way to get that without having extreme stats against other units, though I think it’s much more arguable how good this one is for gameplay.
I do wonder what the effects would be if the Ravager was Light, but I think making it Armored it would just be a massive nerf to a unit that does not need it unless it came with a significant HP buff.
1 Like
In terms of poking Viper Lurker Interaction is on the zerg side , Ghost relatively useless if lurker have +range already u your bound to hit the Overseer 1st or just use libs in to kill lurkers but on the defending zerg your bound to lose . They brought lurkers back from broodwar but science vessel counter them and tanks but lurkers in broodwar dont have FAST BURROW i always see FAST BURROWED LURKERS with NYDUS like TANKIVACS as TERRAN thats how i see it It flyies in your main then GG!!. Terrans is always forced to use tanks if u see a lurker which Byun didnt make tanks he insta loss with Nydus Lurkers do you want game like these to watch i basically just yea GG then wise guy if i see a nydus lurker in my base. OVERSEER is OP in GENERAL and bound tO be NERFED the widow mine was nerfed to the ground but the changes of OVERSEER are still intact.
Viper is like Science Vessel in Brood War skills that viper have basically no counter at all the interaction in broodwar every skill has a counter like the Medic skill RESTORATION there is mono battles seems fair even with skills but in Terms of Viper in starcraft 2 theres none. If viper and Raven have basically same interaction but they force Ghost vs Viper Interaction which is . Honestly we all know how many times the RAVEN has been redesigned but none of it sinks to be a core unit.
Raven should have big role in armies like TVZ but basically useless less survivability if u ask me Raven should be always cloaked like the DT. And should have attack like HT . Maybe give them Small Micro Scan like on orbital . or give Raven like Overseer and Observers have deploy mechanism so it has more visual range. Or give me back my heat seeker missiles back so i can kill those massing carrier idiot right of the bats with ez clicks . Why cant i have my ez clicks like they DO with High Templar.
Honestly they should just scrap the mech thing Bio and Helion Thor and Tanks should have one Upgrade on Attacks but at what cost.
Helion probably meaningfull change is they should start with Smart Servos right of the bat considering how big this maps .
About the Colossus nobody wants the Heart of the Swarm Colosus basically ok as it is .
1 Like
It’s significantly easier to get lurkers into a good position than it is to get tanks into a concave
1 Like
In LotV beta, the ravager was armored but it fired twice as fast as it does now. That was back when tanks did 50 damage with tankivac instead of 70, so i am curious if the faster attack speed would be enough or if more HP would be needed too if it got an armored tag.
Remove Disruptor and make the Colossus fire at random where both beams make an “S” shape, figure-eight, or a random 1/4 circle motion to spread out damage vs doing it in a fine line like it currently does. Could even play with the Immortal having a late-game upgrade where it does a tiny amount of splash.
Or give us back the Reaver lol.
I started playing again with protoss, got to masters on all team games just massing air. Most of the time my one army can handle at least 2 armies (esp if opponents are zergs). Says a lot about the current balance.