Using Zerg as an example with just a few simple ideas.
Swarm Hosts - each swarm host attack costs a peg of damage to the unit
(similar to Terran stim, able to be healed of course)
Brood lord utilizes a fraction of it’s HP that’s divided among broodlings before each cast. Health refills prior to next cast, and health is once again fractioned amongst new set of broodlings. (would make Broodlords vulnerable during cast, therefore would no longer be “free”). one other instance
remove shroud from Infestor, and allow for scourge infestation.
Visible mutation occurs on the Infestor as it becomes engorged, after a span of 8 seconds, the infestor erupts (killing the unit) releasing 4 scourge units (see SC BW) that do not have set life-spans. This wouldnt call for the need of yet-another unit to be added to the already large roster, would fill the need for additional air defense, and would also not be free since it was at the cost of infestor (and would give an alternative path of action, unlike if you mass corruptors for broodlords and someone killed off your greater spire ).
No nerfing broodlord like that is too much, you have to commit with broodlord… It isn’t same as sh…
Scrouge yes, zerg has nothing to defeat mass carrier !!
No killing infestor 4 scourges are you insane and what about mistake ? Build them from hatchery…
Broodlings no longer spawn from structures.
Brood Lord now longer throws broodlings. Brood Lord replaced by Guardian.
Swarm Host no longer spawns locusts. Now spawns air.
Changelings removed.
Hatchery larvae removed. No free units.
Creep tumors removed. No free structures.
Mules removed.
Raven auto-turrets removed.
Adept shade removed. Can’t have two of one unit at once.
All races now start game with zero workers. No free units.
It’s a bad idea to remove shroud when we don’t have much data on it. It’s a cool ability that has some potential.
The brood lord HP thing is no. The brood lord is the one unit I give a pass on in regards to free units because there are so many counters to it now. But the swarm host needs to be like a ground based carrier and cost minerals to spawn locust. The cooldown on locust has become ridiculous. Say what you will about the HOTS version, at least you could craft a strategy around it and make a long term plan. Now they are so niche and actually hurt you in the long run if the enemy play smart against the locust.
Not at all, assuming they worked in a similar manner to mules (being temporary units and not really mass-producable without significant investment). The difference is that free workers don’t give free money. They can’t, unless they somehow generate minerals from nothing, with nothing to mine from. The only way free workers would be broken - and this is the problem with mules specifically - is that in ultra-late-game situations (which happens rarely, to be fair, certainly less frequently than in HotS) you can sack mineral workers for more army supply and still keep the same income.
Ultimately though when you are trading units for units, you are still trading money for money. The problem with free army units has never been how they were made, it was always that you were trading nothing for something.
You don’t get that with mules, because there is still a cost to the units you make from the minerals the mules mine, in addition to the minerals themselves ultimately being of limited resources.
If broodlings are free that kill by trading nothing then broodlords are flying paperweights that don’t have an attack and are useless. You can’t have it both ways, this argument is ridiculous.
The comment was more about swarm hosts and infestors than anything because at no point do swarm hosts ever have a risk upon themselves. Broodlords do because they have to fairly consistantly stay in range to do damage (swarmhosts don’t). Broodlings only have a few seconds in which they are alive, and are melee units, which limits the damage output. Locusts, while they have timed life, are ranged, high dps, fly (which means they avoid barriers such as terrain) and last a long time despite their timed life.
Of all the free unit interractions zerg has had in the past, broods were the least problematic (though the range bug was a little obscene, but still less problematic than swarm hosts and infestors).
Broodlords also have a much larger skill expression than swarm hosts do through kiting, whilst swam hosts essentially pop their load and disappear into the nydus network.
The comment was more about swarm hosts and infestors than anything because at no point do swarm hosts ever have a risk upon themselves. Broodlords do because they have to fairly consistantly stay in range to do damage (swarmhosts don’t).
So once again, the actual complaint against swarm host has nothing to do with the cost of locusts and everything to do with the swarm host’s range.
Ultimately both the swarm-host and the locust have their own issues that need to be dealt with. The issue with ranged units is that the DPS that they can output is significantly greater than a melee unit can, because of how tightly they can cluster. This was part of the reason Infested Terrans were impossible to balance, even though they required energy.
Broodlings arent free units, they are just ammo that does a set amount of damage before they die, and they can even be killed, they are fine as they are
So then this whole argument about free units doesn’t make sense since you’re talking specifically about swarm hosts. Infested Terrans dont’ exist anymore and even when they did people only complained them in the last few months before they were removed. So if free units were an issue why only lately?
Lets be honest, none of this is really an argument about design. It’s people whining about Zerg and trying to be creative about it but it’s very obvious what’s going on.
well, the question is, why we dont have much data on it. i can give you the easy and true answer - because the spell is nowhere near as good as the other spells/options you have to do exactly the same.
like i said, to make it usable, you would have to make it so, that it reduces EVERY ranged dmg. numbers could be tweaked, so i wouldnt say 10% or 25% or whatsover, because you would have to balance it out.
you could also make it like the aam. so that every unit inside the spell area gets +1 armor f.e.
thats the way you would have to change/buff cloud, to make it usable.
