PTR 5.0.15 Patch notes:

General Discussion
104

I’ve been thinking about how storm affects PvT and I am pretty sure it will delete SCV allins. The reduced damage rate will be significantly weaker vs high health or high healing units. That means it’s weaker vs marauder medivac. But, with SCV allins, they usually don’t make medivacs. Medivacs are a value engine, meaning they get value over time, and that means you want to prolong the game. So SCV allins generally don’t have medivacs. SCVs are also low health. SCVs also don’t move fast, especially if they are repairing a bunker or a tank. So we have the ideal unit to kill with storms and the #1 scenario where the toss needs to kill mass amounts of SCVs is the SCV pull allin. So any SCV pull that hits after storm can be researched is simply non viable on this patch.

I think that’s OK because the reason SCV pulls happen is that terran can’t defend them when doing a move-out. The moment you get a production wave, you move out to do an attack. You then have a period before your next production wave finishes when your are undefended. Terran has no anti-ground that doesn’t cost supply except for the planetary. But planetaries can’t afforded when doing timing attacks. So, there is a period when a prism can fly in and delete all the SCVs for free. That’s why SCV pulls happen. Your SCVs die either way so might as well bring them for the fight. Anyway the viking is getting buffed and it is the main defense vs that exact scenario. After it deletes the prism, it can fight a couple zealots, and then join the fight. This means terrans can do 2 base timing attacks without having to pull the scvs.

Another consequence is that toss will be better at shutting down mass repair in general. Anytime mass repair is used it will be weaker. Mass repair on planetaries and bunkers come to mind.

1 Like
105

Two of the most broken units disruptor and Templar are buffed through the roof. They just want to buff sky toss more. I was right all along. PPPs goal is to a move through to victory.

106

In fact, the anti air structure in SC2 is made by 2 rings, the first ring is “Corruptor < Void ray < Viking < Phoenix < Corruptor”, the other one is “Stalker < Void ray < Marine = Hydralisk < AOE unit < Stalker”; Please forget about Tempest, it only work for PvP, and get deleted by Corruptor and Viking. In fact, Protoss anti air are paying higher cost then other race since it need to make 2 type of unit or more. If Blizz want to buff Tempest, it would make Tempest overpower and destroy all anti air rings.

Liberator is something different, its anti-air damage needs to mass up to be effective, so either raise its damage to 7 or reduce its cost to strengthen its anti-air role, otherwise the Liberator will be easily destroyed by the Tempest.

All Viking counters either deal more damage than the Viking or are cheaper than the Viking, and its ground bonus damage is only effective against Stalkers, so trading this bonus for a cost reduction is much fairer for the Viking. I have no ideas about other changes because it’s still in the PTR period, so who knows?

107

Yeah, it’s been a common request for years on end at this point. It’s a good change in that like, it allows you to actually make a map that doesn’t have a big behind the mineral line area next to the dead space; which is something people kept making over and over because it looks aesthetic and feels good against ie. reapers.

I fundamentally think that the way the Liberator interacts with the game as a harassment tool is extremely anti-fun and painful to view, just like the Widow Mine and Disruptor and +2 Banelings and old Snipe and original Fungal and Infested Terran and - You get my point.

It looks dumb as hell to have a unit that can attack ground units at such range and DPS while not being able to be attacked back by those ground units that also isn’t exactly squishy and also isn’t expensive or hard to have room for.

The Tempest has the same like, stupid interaction set, but it doesn’t have 60 DPS, it costs 30% more. Of course, I don’t think the Tempest should be 4 supply either because it pushes it into the “easy to fold into army” category, like, jesus.

I do not think the Adept being able to 2 shot SCVs creates problems in a way that it being able to 2 shot Drones and Probes does not. I hold this as a basic principle about how harass units work.

The reason for Furaijin’s complaint is that the Adept’s inability to be effective against specifically and exactly Terran workers - the race that it already has the most difficulty getting in against due to the nature of the Supply Depot - means that Protoss has reduced tactical flexibility in how it mutes Terran pushes.

I do agree with you that like. It’s not needed at all. But having talked to so many people, it’s an underlying sort-of-problem; and a big chunk of why Terran early game was so godawful was because of the Mothership Core also being around.

I do agree with the base expansion thing though so it’s like…how to say.
This problem is way less important than that one, and also that problem completely invalidates that this one exists. Adepts having a bad time vs Terran is a necessity due to the severity of the other problem being something that would be amplified if this was adjusted.

My logic was that most things with base armor have a lot of health and then I stopped thinking - you’re absolutely correct, 12.5 (+2.5) DPS is nothing to sneeze at even for ie. BC’s 550 HP.

Technically, Immortals and Disruptors; but also relevant is the ability of the Viking against Siege Tanks. Sure, TvT is de facto balanced by virtue of mirror, but that’s not an excuse to make the mirror suck more the way that Ling-Bane mirrors are kind of degenerate.

1 Like
108

Honestly speaking the problem wasn’t the mothership core at the time, it was the combination of Adept-Oracle basically being game ending since you couldn’t deal with both the adepts and the oracle simultaneously. Not with any real regularity or consistency.

In theory cyclones were the only real answer to it, but in practice it was… not anywhere nearly as effective.

Which is specifically why I’m not opposed to the removal of liberator circles giving additional vision, but also simultaneously further reducing their vision on top of that is frankly, very stupid.

While it does come out somewhat early, it’s not much earlier than say, a tempest rush (which is abusive as hell in its own right), and every race has the ability to deal with base range liberators with reasonable efficiency. Zerg has both queens and moveable spores, and Protoss has stalkers, Phoenixes and Void-rays.

Liberators aren’t cheap early game (granted, not as expensive as a tempest, but still), and its range is far more limited than any other siege unit in the game due to the nature of it only being able to target within the circle.

2 Likes
109

If viking cannot get a better cost reduction, the cost of marine and hydralisk should be increase a bit, they are too cheap as an anti air unit. Especially the Hydralisk is insane. Also cannon and shield battery need a cost reduction because protoss tier 1 unit is a bit too weak.

Psionic Storm is in a good spot, but it is extremely effective against Terran mechanical units. Terran mechanical units rely on SCVs to repair, and the storm eliminates all SCVs, with no way to prevent it. Therefore i suggested to give a new ability to Planetary Frotress to repair unit and structure in a target area and raise Thor and BattleCruiser movement speed to 3.15.

The Colossus has been nerfed to the ground with this. I think raising Colossus damage by 5 and Siege Tank damage by 10 would make the change feel better.

110

Is it the setting or other problem when I take control of the replay enemy will not apply an AI to move? Also Raven is little bit too weak, it would be better to change the Anti-Armor Missile to a spell that act as a trap which is invisible after cast, when enemy unit step in it, it explode for 5 time and each time deal 50 (+30 to armored) in an area.

111

Marines are fine as an AA unit. Theyre cheap sure, but their range isn’t anything to write home about and theyre very strongly affected by armor, which most air units have at least a little bit of. The only thing marines can proactively fend off on their own are mutalisks, oracles in certain circumstances and maybe transports if they happen to be in the right position already. Anything else and you would want a more dedicated AA option like vikings.

4 Likes
112

They can also shred vikings for the same reason that they can wreck mutas - vikings have no armour.

113

True, but vikings have significantly more range than marines do, so while actually getting shot at is dangerous, they have a decent ability to just avoid that. Engaging enemy vikings with marines means exposing them to whatever is standing underneath the vikings, which is typically something marines don’t want to be doing.

3 Likes
114

If I recall, what about Broodlords get that bug-fix that was talked about in the previous patch that was left untouched?

115

it was “too good” of a fix for a bugged unit so they scrapped that.

116

I agree that the co-lol-sus is pretty weak in all matchups, most especialy PvP. But, BUT, Protoss has been posting a never ending stream of positive win-rates at the pro level for years & have recently set record high win-rates. They need to prioritize bringing the power level of protoss downward. That needs to be the #1 priority, and a co-lol-sus buff would be opposite of that. They could buff the co-lol-sus in PvP without affecting balance in other matchups. Why not +10 damage to shields?

Why are these units always weakest in PvP and strongest in PvT/PvZ? It makes no sense. It’s the reverse for terran/zerg. Mutalisks and roaches are strongest against zerg. Siege tanks and strongest against terran. There is this weird softening of the game design where Protoss are given bonkers strong abilities in PvT/PvZ but don’t have to worry about those being strong in PvP. They get to dish it out, but never take it.

I say give the colosus +20 damage to shields considering how beefy protoss units are. There need to be ways for top Protoss to flex their skill & differentiate themselves from other Protoss.

Also, the col-lawl-sus is a good stabilizing unit because of its range allowing for zone control. PvP devolves into proxy v proxy because protoss have no zone control in the early game. Consider TvP by contrast which has zone control (tanks) and this prevents every PvT being a 4 gate blink allin. The lack of a strong zone control tool for PvP is why it’s a proxy-fest.

PvP also doesn’t have a strong asymmetries between tech choices, either. Stalkers dominate, immortals beat stalkers, zealots beat immortals, and archons beat zealots. So usually PvP end game fights are decided by the zealot count in relation to the archon/immortal ratio. If the ratio is low and you make lots of zealots, you win. Put a buffed colosus into the situation and suddenly PvP air tech looks much more enticing because the colosus will completely change the ground control mechanics of PvP.

1 Like
117

What I would like to see is Ventral Sacs is added to the Evolution Chamber. I think adding more early game harass options for Zerg would be a great addition.

That and maybe also prevent Phoenix from lifting Tank in siege mode as well.

118

i will stop playing sc2. theres too much imbalance. Surveillance Mode cant be called surveillance if they can see you… goodbye toss… i hope next patch they will return it… sigh no toss will be crowned as champion.

1 Like
119

Toss winrates are setting record highs and you’re getting a massive storm buff on top of that.

4 Likes
120

Results are in:
TvP: 39%
TvT:79%
TvZ: 57%

121

Are these your win rates?

122

Yup i take MMR from Zerg/terrans and give it to protoss