Terran ? How is Terran more mobile than Zerg ?
Yeah this tournament HerO played really poorly and deserved to be eliminated, but last year he finished 3rd remember ?
Inconsistency is one thing but overall skill is another. HerO and MaxPax are the only two protosses capable of competing against top zergs at pro level. Sadly MaxPax doesn’t play offline tournaments so we have yet to see his performance but currently MaxPax is 7.2 rank 1 GM on EU ladder which kind of indicates his potential.
How is protoss imbalanced ? At least at pro level ? Maybe on your scrub M2/M1 it is imbalanced because you’re losing to skytoss every game which infuriates you, but you can’t say protoss is imbalanced when all protosses get eliminated in group stage and only two make it playoffs. Meanwhile zerg is ravaging premier tournaments and zergs apologists keep shouting:
“It’s only Serral”. Seriously this is boring.
In order to nerf zerg we don’t need hammer nerfs - just small tweaks here and there. Personally i think that zerg should not be allowed ling speed at hatchery level. Speedlings are so fast that you forget to raise depo/put an adept in wall-in - you instantly lose the game. Protoss is literally contained in his own base and cannot move out. Stargate opener is the only viable strategy vs zerg because of speedlings and later lurkers. Do you realize that ? How can protoss contest zerg ground army if force fields are destroyed by ravagers, banes decimate zealots/adepts and lurkers shred entire protoss army (even immortals) Not even you can be this delusional.
And i say that as terran.
1 Like
I do remember. But it’s that inconsistency that means I can’t say he’s on the level of the other players. While they too have their own inconsistencies (Maru in particular has had times where he has some confusing moments), they’re often fewer and further between than HerO does, who is so inconsistent to the point that it makes you legitimately question who is actually playing.
His inconsistency is literally on a game-by-game basis. At his best, he’s definitely capable of beating those players. At his worst, he looks like a diamond league player in both decision making and macro/micro. He has the highest highs, and the lowest lows, but where Maru’s highs are absolutely incredible, Maru’s lows don’t drag him down anywhere nearly as much or as badly as HerO’s own low points do.
I’ve often said that MaxPax is one of the few Protoss who is consistently good and would love to see him do more than just his online victories/qualifications. The sad reality is that he actively refuses to participate offline, even when he qualifies and he/his team gets fined for it each time he pulls out (according to ZG and a few others that have spoken on the topic). That he still does it, or has his team pay for it, is incredibly confusing to me.
This would be a disaster change IMO because of how vulnerable that would make Zerg players to Reaper openings - it would ultimately end the game very, very poorly and Zerg would take a very sharp and sudden decline in winrates almost across the board, not just at pro level. Byun/Maru’s 2 rax reaper would become standard in the matchup (and to some extent is already extremely common as a macro opener), and frankly would straight up kill Zerg players in many cases.
This I agree with, though most Protoss players seem to have it out over TvP which is more confusing to me, though don’t get me wrong, Protoss has issues there too.
The only other opener that used to be viable was the Prism/Archon opener that is literally never seen anymore, and that makes me sad, cause it was a nice little way for Protoss players to show some sort of multi-tasking skill with pickup/drop harass while macroing back home. Changes to the queen, as well as pickup range (to be fair 6 pickup range was absurd), ultimately made this go the way of the dodo, but that paired with other Protoss nerfs have left them in the gutter.
Ravagers specifically need changes to make FF more useable against Zerg as once Ravagers are on the field sentries become almost entirely useless, which Protoss desperately need against Slings and Banes, which otherwise annihilate Protoss units.
And Mutas; Protoss has an even harder time vs Mutas than Terran ever had, since their only actual answer to them is phoenix which you can’t really tech into retroactively, and Archons, which can never actively deal with Mutas or even put pressure on them.
1 Like
~69/31 pvz winrate in gm, which should be 50/50. It’s statistically impossible for protoss to have those kinds of winrates without having an advantage in tge matchup. Thats is why there are only two kinds of people on earth: those who know protoss is advantaged in pvz, and those who don’t understand 6th grade math.
https://i.imgur.com/RMJlbKU.png
I did this without using anti air in ZvZ (lmao) and doing macro swarmhosts vs terran. Vs Protoss I have to play “for realz” - there is no way to make meme builds work with the advantage that toss has right now.
No anti air vs zerg is pretty easy. You just go 2 base nydus and keep him busy with the swarm hosts on the left then the right then the left then the right. While you do this you go up to hive. You research carapace upgrades along the way. By the time the mutas have stabilized, you will have about 10 full armor ultras charging across the map. If he does get pushy with the mutas you just make vipers and spores before the ultras. It’s a piece of cake. It’s the funniest thing. The mutas finally get to attack and they are instantly hit with several parasitic bombs and die.
Love people who think they know better than the literal best pro player out there right now. I’m convinced! Totally unrelated to this topic; mind showing us ur MMR?
If you used the IQR test, aka what they teach in 6th grade math, you’d know that pro players are the definition of irrelevant when it comes to balance discussions. Outliers of outliers don’t represent balance. For a correlation to be valid, it has to affect the group as a whole minus the 1% most extreme outliers. Pro players wouldn’t make that cut – not by a large margin. Balance the game around the player base, and let the pro players bypass any issues using their skill (that’s literally what they are paid for).
Yet most of the balance changes in this game are made because of what happens at the pro level. Always has been. Which means the very basic math model you tried to apple here… doesn’t apply to this situation.
Nice try tho!
Btw seeing as you know everything better than the pros (than yet somehow turn out to be wrong anyway) why didn’t u answer the MMR question? Very interesting.
Yep, that’s the issue. They nerfed zerg so that the outlier of outliers would lose a best of 7. Did they accomplish that? Nope, he still wins every tournament. But what they did accomplish is that they deleted zerg from the ladder. SC2 is a case study in exactly why you can’t base decisions around outliers.
At least ur willing to admit you’re simply wrong instantly. I’m impressed. Bit weird to go from ur high horse and claiming I cant apply a basic math model; which you were wrong for applying in the first place.
Then you proceeded to instantly move the goal posts… I mean… its very hard to take you seriously at this point.
Maybe try an other math class or 2 to see which models apply when so you don’t make yourself look this silly and we can actually have a conversation. Just a tip tho!
1 Like
I never said I was wrong. Why would I do that? I am correct. The facts are on my side, my theory is robust, and my methodology is immaculate. In order for me to lose this debate, I’d have to have a lobotomy, and even then I’d still probably win.
The SC2 pro players learned a hard lesson about statistics this past year. They cried and cried that Serral won all the tournaments because Zerg was OP. Artosis was crying and crying about the baneling in particular. Then they nerfed zerg, repeatedly. They nerfed the baneling. What happened to Serral? His performance increased. Do you remember that nerfed baneling? Yeah Serral used it to beat Maru, and the games weren’t even close.
Outliers don’t follow balance trends by definition, that’s why they are outliers. Trying to get Serral to obey the game rules is like making water run uphill. The only people who are affected by balance are the ones who aren’t gargantuan skill outliers, aka the rest of the player base. In that demographic, Protoss utterly dominates.
Ignore the pro scene. Balance the game around 99% of players minus 1% of outliers. If the pro players run into an issue, they can solve it with skill – that’s literally what they are paid to do.
Flash news!!! THe game is LITERALLY balanced for pro players. Do you honestly believe that anyone will balance the game because some scrubs in diamond/master leagues are struggling ? Why do you even mention those stupid, irrelevant tools like IQR or Lyapunov exponent when you know it has zero relevance at pro level. Nobody cares about some stupid stats in lower leagues. Also PvZ winrate 69/31 might be result of multiple smurf accounts of protoss players. That’s why this one statistic may be skewed.
I hate agreeing with BatZ, but the game shouldn’t just be balanced for pro play, but also more casual players.
It’s something League does very well, actually, because they’re constantly balancing for both high tier players and low tier players. Obviously there is an element that needs to be taken into account of “you just need to be better” but you can’t completely exclude elements of balance around those bad players either.
The difficult part though, is how do you do that for an RTS? League has several different systems you can balance around. Items. Champions themselves (base stats, scaling stats into the game, their abilities etc). Come-back mechanics. Even the EXP mechanics are something you could feasibly alter.
The big question is what can you balance in SC2 that wouldn’t also drastically effect players at the pro level?
1 Like
And that’s why the game isn’t popular. Game balance is centered around the mechanical skills of the outliers of outliers, and that, by definition, isn’t going to appeal to hardly anyone. Imagine if to ride a bike you had to be able to do bmx stunts. Suppose there’s a law and you’ll get a ticket if you don’t do bmx stunts with your bike. The popularity of biking would fall off a cliff because only 0.1% of bikers are even capable of doing bmx stunts.
That’s sc2 in a nutshell. There are a lot of strategy games out there. Chess comes to mind. The strategy genre is very popular, and sc2 could be popular. But, Sc2 is the only one that has an extreme emphasis on multitasking. An equivalent scenario would be playing 3 games of blitz chess simultaneously. Nobody is interested in that because the multitasking overrides the strategy. Strategy is no longer the way to win: multitasking is the way to win. Sc2 isn’t a strategy game. It’s a multitasking and endurance game, aka “EAM”.
Go watch clem or reynor or maxpax stream. Their camera is moving so fast it will make your stomach sick. Because sc2 is designed around Serral & Crew, it isn’t a strategy game anymore. Basically nobody on earth likes to multitask. Most people find it stress inducing. Strategy on the other hand is fascinating which is why strategy games are so popular. If SC2’s multitaking were cut by 10%, it would probably double the number of players. This would also heavily nerf serral: first becausehe wins via multitasking, second because drawing in new talent would bring new contenders to the pro scene.
Man if I play protoss I will play better than some that let their workers go pooof. I will not allow such losses of workers and know to blink stalker libs, cmon the people proly can’t do basic things here that post
I told you that i 100 % agree with this but do you expect SC2 team to change it because YOU or I want it ?
Many people created threads that they want WOL HOTS ladders to be restored because they were slower paced and more enjoyable.
I said carriers were op specifically because of the intercepor ai for months before the last patch. What do you know, they nerfed the intercepor ai. I said the same thing about the map pool. It was too vanilla and too good for terran (we had tvtvtvt semi finals in gsl). Boom, new and more diverse map pool & it was a bad map pool for terran. To give u an idea on how busted the pool was, terrans on the new pool would make orbitals at their fourth out of habit. It’s one of the reasons why maru lost to serral. The map pool was so insane last season that terran players forgot the basics of TvZ, because tvz was a zero effort win on that map pool.
The balance counsel are public figures and that means they’ll be responsive to political pressure. If you get ideas out there, they spread & are eventually picked up by the various balance counsel members. Seeing lots of people talk about an idea will be perceived as a type of popular pressure because influencers try to be popular. Influencers are basically slaves to popular trends.
The charts I posted, which show protoss have drastically lower mechanical skills, will no doubt sway opinion, especially considering recent tournament results which had protoss punching deep into tournaments while making mechanical errors like losing 4 oracles in 1 game. The mechanical skill required to play protoss is simply drastically lower than terran or zerg. Premier tournament outcomes have nothing to do with balance & everything to do with protoss playing like noobs.
I called it years ago & everyone said I was crazy. Youtubers made videos making fun of me and I was relentlessly harangued by 90 iq internet lunatics anywhere I went in the sc2 community. Then, protoss hit 61% winrates in the pro scene while top protoss played horribly. The imba was so blatant that even the most relentless grifters couldn’t deny it anymore. Everyone placed their bets; they lost and I won. Now they get to do the walk of shame & nerf toss. There are winners and there are losers in life. Such as life.
I currently have 3 accounts in gm during the zerg mmr apocalypse. Frankly any zerg that kept their gm badge deserves a medal. You were relentlessly harassed by internet lunatics who were convinced you were cheating because “muh serral wins muh Premier” and you kept with it. Mad respect to all of you out there.
You sound as if TvZ is ezpz which is not regardless of map, terran still needs to multitask like a god, have excellent, very cost efficient trades while zerg f2 a moves on ANY MAP, even if last map pool favored terran.
It’s quite the opposite. Popular trends are created by influencers. Stupid example - if someone public figure tells out keto diet is good - of all a sudden everybody go on a keto diet.
You keep bringing this one argument just because you saw it ONCE in your lifetime ?How about protoss sacrificed those oracles on purpose to get as much dmg/vision to fight zerg opponents.
Yes, they do. Protoss being mechanically easy is debatable. I would say from terran persperctive zerg is the easiest because you spam multiple units from a single production type facility, you can increase supply without building a structure and zerg benefits most from infamous “F2 - A MOVE” ? Agreed ?
However i agree that most protosses play trash and maybe they don’t deserve to win tournaments, but still protoss requires significant changes, and “zergling nerf” is not gonna cut it.
On the previous map pool, it was. It was as ez pz as rallying tge army to the fourth, sieging, killing the fourth, boisting into the main. You MIGHT have to send a drop to the third. It resulted in TvTvTvT finals in code s. Prior to that point, there had never been 1 race to dominate the semi finals, and they did it TWICE in a row on that map pool.
That’s an inversion of how it works. A good example was the recent Bin-Laden trend on tic toc, where influencers rushed to endorse a terrorist (lmao). Influencers are not the ones in control, the consumers are in control.
People legitimately don’t understand how markets work. People don’t buy a product just because you made it. You make a product because they will buy it. Hollywood lost a billion dollars the past year because they thought the producer is in charge, and they learned the hard lesson that it’s the consumer who is in charge. Influencers produce videos because they know their fanbase will watch it. The consumers of the entertainment are in control, not the producers.
As a businessman, you are a slave to the market. You sell anything to anyone as long as they will buy it. Literally nothing else matters. That’s why it’s insane to blame corporations for climate change. Corporations are doing what their consumers want them to do. The individuals are causing climate change and then blaming it on corporations. Stopping the climate change caused by corporations is as ez pz lemon squeezy as buying a different product from a different company. The problem is that the consumer doesn’t want to make any meaningful changes to their lifestyle, can’t accept responsibility for their actions, and so they blame it all on corporations. That’s why the government loves market manipulation to artificially raise prices, because they can hurt the consumer directly and now the consumer has to make a hard choice, because gas is $5/gallon. The problem with this approach is that it is classist, e.g. the rich people won’t even notice and will keep on keeping on like nothing happened, while the poor people are forced to ration a scarce resource. That’s a bad strategy in a republic because you basically won’t be elected ever again if you do something like that because the low and middle class people will never vote for you ever again. So the bureaucracy loves market manipulation and the political class hates it.
To this day, the price of aluminum is driving me crazy. They banned imports of metal from china for a period, then from iran and now russia. Aluminum and stainless is easily 3x their original cost. If you operate a business that uses these resources, kiss your income good bye and pray that Trump gets elected before democrats delete your business from off the map.
I see it practically every pro game with a protoss in it. You’d see it too if you had eyes. Losing oracles is a common one, floating money is another, rallying robo units to their death is another, as well as f2+aclick micro (it’s easy to spot because disruptors walk forward and die, etc). Protoss rely an f2+aclick micro so much that they gave the high templar an attack so the templar wouldn’t wander forward and die, because managing two army hotkeys is too much to expect for professional protoss. PartinG does it and that’s why his storm drop maneuvers were so fierce. Almost every other toss f2+aclicks and casts T-click t-click t-click and that’s their grand engagement plan.
That’s why it’s such a joke when people wonder why protoss don’t win premiers. PartinG had the highest vs T rating ever recorded because he mastered the 2-hotkey protoss army. Imagine how busted Protoss could be with a 4 or 6 hotkey player. They’d literally never lose a game again.
Lmfao. Dude legit can’t read a chart. Protoss being mechanically easier is “debate-able” in the same sense that round earth is “debate-able”. Legit flat earth levels of denial right here on bnet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBmfv_XwOQI&t=3453s
Let’s imagine for a second that Hero had stutter stepped here and done split micro instead of taking banelings and blinding clouds to the face. Imagine if he had a 2 hotkey multiprong while stutter stepping and splitting. Imagine if he were doing pick up micro with his prism as he stutter stepped and split microed as he multipronged. He wins that in a landslide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBmfv_XwOQI&t=2189s
It took me 30 seconds to find a robo unit misrallied into the zerg for a free kill. WhY ArE ThErE No PrOtOsS ChAmPIonS??? Show me the protoss who plays as well as Serral and I will show you the protoss who wins every tournament he enters.
1 Like