My statement on slowing the game speed

General Discussion
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I may have not posted it in the most correct definition way but I do understand.

SC2 has gone… ? SC2 has been like that since WoL . Stop contradicting yourself and calling others trolls. You keep saying how more skilled WoL was terran had to multi drop now they have widow mines etc, How is that making the game faster? It eases it to some extent. Terran had to do more in WoL you are correct, now game is easier. Only it skips the boring build all workers from start

This is so delusional. Changing the speed (apart from the fact no one will do it on an end of dev cycle game), will change almost nothing. The game is dead and there is no going back.

Get off the high horse. I have written "Game Design Documents’ that have been evaluated by academics. You act like you know it all others are idiots, you are so full of yourself. Lol clown

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This flies in the face of all the evidence & the accepted game theory. Even board games know it’s a bad idea to design a board game to take too long. There is a strong inverse correlation between game duration and number of purchases. Games that take a few minutes to play, like Angry Bird which had half a billion copies sold by 2011, are the most popular. Games that take a long time, like “The Campaign for North Africa”, sold almost no copies to speak of (it takes 1500 hours to complete 1 game) and are only famous for how insanely poor their design is.

What you are saying is simply wrong. It’s so wrong it’s like saying water isn’t wet. Anyone who has worked in the game design industry knows shorter games sell better. It’s just a fact of life.

Imagine if we took Angry Birds and required players to fling 10 birds a second. Now imagine they had to do this for 45 minutes straight just to beat 1 level. If you think that isn’t going to obliterate the popularity of the game, you are lying to yourself. Multitasking is stressful for most people, and most people don’t like to commit large amounts of time to a single game. SC2 ramped up the game duration and multitasking stress while the game market was heading the other direction. If you are going to claim that wasn’t a big part of the problem, then your opinion is in contradiction to the available evidence.

A) I will never believe claims like that while you deny basic definitions to words. That’s like saying you’re a plumber but you don’t know what a DWV pipe is. Any plumber on the face of the planet would know it’s a “Drainage, waste, and venting pipe”. They wouldn’t argue with you on the definition and call you a clown. Nothing you are doing here is helping your case.

B) Do you know why they became academics? Because they couldn’t succeed in entrepreneurship. It’s one of the problems in academia. There are loads of professors who have exactly zero real life success. Of those who do have real-world experience, it was working with somebody else’s already successful business. That’s like being handed a golden cash cow and being told to feed & water it to keep it alive.

Entrepreneurship works a lot like the SC2 meta. If you are doing the same old thing that everyone else is doing, you will be hard-countered and lose. If you want to succeed, you have to be one step ahead of everyone else. By definition, everything they teach you at university is already several steps behind where the current markets are at. Schools are probably 10 years behind the market. Only recently have some physics teachers started to teach their students to solve physics problems using Python. People have been solving physics problems with programming for decades. 99% of the cutting-edge advancements are NEVER published because you don’t want to share your ideas with your competitors. Ideas that are taught in schools are by definition at least a decade old and are so far behind the current ideas that they are no longer a threat so companies are glad to share them openly.

It used to be that there was a high startup cost for competitors to copy a technology and/or you could protect your IP using patent law. Neither of those work anymore. If you leak your ideas, a company in China copies them and puts you out of buisiness with cheaper labor. The startup cost is so low that you can literally get a 3D scanner and copy an existing product design for under 500 bucks. The only way to protect intellectual property in the modern era is to never, ever, talk about it unless the person you are talking to has signed an NDA AND you have the power to strictly enforce that NDA.

Do you remember the big advancements the SC2 team unrelieved? The inverse kinematics was impressive at the time. It’s what allows the Colossus to walk up cliffs and not have derpy legs. The fluidic nature of SC2’s units is still coveted by game developers to this date. Implementing a similar system is ridiculously difficult. Are they teaching that stuff in schools? Nope, because it would be extremely dumb for Blizzard to release the algorithms behind their game engines. You can’t learn about this stuff in schools, you have to invent it.

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I always thought that Angry Birds are popular, because any person with single digit IQ can play it without any problems… Because it is a mobile game and a lot more people have mobile phones, than gaming PC… But now I realize, what is the actual reason for that: It is a game length. The long games are bad, if Counter-Strike or DOTA did not have 40-60 minutes games, but let’s say 10-20, like SC2, they would have a chance to have more players than SC2. Now I finally know the truth.

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I hate to agree on batz, but he is right on that as far as sc2 goes. Those other games aren’t nearly as multitasking oriented and are far more linear compared to it

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We do not disagree that multitasking can make the game less liked by others. I just don’t see where you decided the game takes more multitasking than before it is the same. I even mentioned, probably less for example as Terran you do not have to mutli drop like before LotV. That was a lot more in WoL.

Also you are missing the main point of all that. yes I know the game is too scary with mechanics to be played. But it is because it got this reputation. Once having this reputation nothing can change it, not even making the game slower. Otherwise, I do not mind because as I said my fave game like that was War3 I just didn’t mind this speed either.

I once was asked by a guy who plays other games what games I played and when I said Starcraft 2 he said “Oh that’s the game where you need to make hundreds of strokes a second right? And that overall was a bad game.”

This reputation was built. Look at IM Mvp splits - yes it was great to see but this also became the message that this is clearly not for anyone.

I agree that the game went too try hard but that was so from the beginning.

I was never defining ‘Strategy’. It is what one imagines of a Strategy game. It was always about building units, structures, expanding something more than a MOBA or RPG where you control one hero, and Real-Time ofc being that you have these on the moment, not turn based. Also believe whatever you want I have a portfolio.

Yes yes everyone is trash and failed one Batz is

Best Statistician
Best Game Designer
Best Balancer

is there anyone better than Batz??

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I would totally agree. SC2 is way more skill demanding than other games. In CS or DOTA you can enjoy the game, right from the start, with the same noobs as yourself. In SC2 even a silver will simply destroy new player. So you will have to suffer a lot, before you will get any joy of playing. The same fate has Quake Champions, where new players, who can’t rocket jump or strafe jump, are getting destroyed by everybody and simply lose motivation to play.

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It has nothing to do with me. It’s blatantly obvious just how many professors there are who are extremely bothered by the fact that they have no real life success. Guys like Avilo are successful entrepreneurs. These academics study for years and learn all these theorems and they can’t manage success on their own, but clowns like Avilo can. It really, really, really bothers the academics that there is something missing that they don’t have and which outweighs their years of study. There are professors with 180iq who just can’t wrap their brains around what makes an entrepreneur successful and it drives them absolutely insane not being able to figure it out. They can solve the most ridiculous math problems with ease, but when it comes time to sell a car they turn a net loss. Lmao.

Imagine being one of the smartest human beings to ever exist and then losing in an arena to a kid who does kung-fu punches in the air after he wins at a video game. :laughing:

Just look at Neuro. Doesn’t he have a degree in Neuroscience? Isn’t his dad the CEO of a fortune 500 company? Avilo typically had 2,000 concurrent viewers. How many does Neuro get these days? It’s just so flipping funny. He even calls himself “THE professor of respect.”

In the entertainment industry, people enjoy pizazz. You have to be as over-the-top and eccentric as possible. You have to be constantly doing dumb stuff like kung-fu punching the air. It’s really quite simple. Have you ever hopped onto Amaranth’s stream? She’s in a string bikini cracking fart jokes for teenage boys. It’s really quite simple. “Professor of respect”? That ain’t gonna sell a blasted thing. The absolute last thing a kid is going to want to hear, especially when playing video games, is a lecture on how to be respectful.

If I started a stream, I’d title it “Professor of DISrespect” and we’d be listening to Limp Bizkit and Rage Against the Machine tracks on repeat:

You could reduce the game speed by 1% per month and nobody would even notice that anything changed. You could definitely cut 5% off without anyone noticing, and you might be able to get away with 10%. This is how companies make changes. Ebay once had a dark-colored background on their webpage. They changed it to white, and received tons of complaints. So, they changed the webpage color from black to grey to white, 0.4% increments each day. Nobody noticed. It took them a year, but they didn’t receive a single complaint.

It’s the “boiling frog” principle. If you drop a frog into a boiling pot, it will hop out. If you put a frog into lukewarm water and slowly raise the temperature to a boil, the frogs will sit there until they cooked.

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[quote=“LordTsaby-2207, post:44, topic:26590”]
and are far more linear compared to it
[/quote]I fully understand you, although you don’t need the game to be extremely fast to be lightning yourself. Perhaps we would start seeing complex interesting strategies from APM bests like ByUn instead of him just having few more units than that unlucky Protoss while also having a medivac in his base. You made a good point with those other slower but more complex games. Right now you don’t need high speed to be great, but to decently do the basics.
Like when have you last played a ladder and took your time to consider the most optimal placement of your structures? Rather than just placing then somewhere, so you can quickly do something else.

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When I last time played :slight_smile:
As a Terran I must fit into very small timing windows and thus having buildings spending as little time in transit between add-ons as possible is very important.

And so is the position of the Reactor of the first Barrack. Having Reactor in the wall is a BIG disadvantage if your opponent is playing something fishy, so if you spawned on the wrong side of the map you already start with disadvantage. In some maps however you can put Barracks in a way that Reactor would still be built not inside the wall.

As a Protoss not having proper wall in the natural is often an auto-GG vs Zerg, and not having a Reaper wall in main is giving a significant advantage for free vs Terran.

I do not however think about such things when I play because I have played thousands of games already, and because for each new map I take my time to launch it alone in custom to check where I need to put my buildings to have the most optimal wall positioning.

Well, WarCraft did not had much strategy to be honest: builds were rudimental, unit compositions were usually not affected by opponents choices and you choice of Hero(es) did not matter much: today people often play in a mod where you get random Heroes…

As for HoMM3 90% of its multiplayer gameplay can be described as “solving chess puzzles in a minimal time possible”. Or even “remembering solutions to these puzzles”. This can be pretty fun activity, but does this still count as strategy?

Oh, these guys do a lot of strategic choices when they play.

If you want to know what specifically I suggest you watch series “I Played In A $2500 Tournament, Here’s How It Went” by uThermal, where Mark playes on a real tournament and comments his every action and explain choices that he makes.
Or “HarsteamCasts” channel where - unlike most casters - Kevin most of the time talks a lot about choices made by players, why it mattered, and why the were wrong/good choices.

And speaking of Harstem, in his “IIIODIS” series he makes fun of people doing various mistakes but most of all he focuses attention on wrong choices made. For Diamond and above it is usually wrong choices done by players that caused them to loose, not mistakes in micro or macro.

For us mere mortals what matters in this game a lot is having a good build - which IS a strategy - and having a good plan for the game - which IS a strategy - and be able to adjust this plan according to what happens in the game - which also IS a strategy.

And speaking of builds, one thing that progamers do and we don’t is the mindgame: all games we play on the ladder are BO1 while progamers play at least BO3.
This is one of the biggest failures of SC2 game design…

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That’s how you can tell SC2 is a multitasking game and not a strategy game. The strategic placement of a building is a lot less important than just getting the building built and making units out of the building. SC2 is about spamming lots of low quality actions really fast. A strategy game emphasizes the quality of the actions, while multitasking emphasizes the speed.

SC2 IS NOT A STRATEGY GAME. IT IS A MULTI-TASKING GAME.

Games like League and Dota have a higher emphasis on strategy than SC2 does, which ironically makes them more true to the RTS genre than SC2. They are doing well, which shows the RTS genre is very popular. SC2 is doing poorly because it isn’t RTS. Multitasking games are very unpopular which is why it was strange for the developers to take SC2’s design down that route starting around 2014.

Lengthening the game duration & emphasizes multitasking was a tremendous design mistake. They deleted “game ending moments” when they needed to add more game ending moments to the game. How else do you require high quality strategy moves than to give your opponent the ability to punish you for a bad move? You have to have bad outcomes for bad moves if you want a game to be strategic. If there are no bad outcomes, there are no bad moves. If bad moves are the same as good moves, it’s not a strategy game. It’s not rocket science.

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Very unlikely. After the Microsoft buyout is complete there is much more likely to be work done in either broodwar perhaps fleshing out some more features like team matchmaking or work on a new entry into the Starcraft brand.

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Well at least there is some modded content to look forward to. I have seen people make new campaigns for SC2.

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It is a multitasking real-time strategy game. Other are strategies without the multitasking aspect. You can’t redefine what has already been defined. When to spam also matters, so strategy. How you attack, what timing, where you lure is part of the same strategy you use in other games. You are wrong

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95% multitasking and 5% strategy game. If that’s a strategy game, then Minecraft and Call of Duty are strategy games.

Oh no, an internet rando can’t understand basic definitions to words & says I am wrong! Whatever will I do!

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Multitasking gives more options which gives more strategy. Its not a spectrum.

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By the way, the reason why emphasizing multitasking reduces strategy is because multitasking becomes the primary strategy. That’s why APM has a correlation with win-rate of 0.65.

To prove this point I made it to 5500 mmr inside GM with randomized build orders. You simply couldn’t do that if SC2 were a strategy game. Build order selection alone would put you into gold league if you randomized your build orders.

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‘An internet rando’… this is the definition of SC2 whether you like it or not. I do not disagree with the ratio of multitasking being heavier than the strategy but it is still called an RTS not by ‘internet rando’ ask any specialist if mine is unworthy for your expertise in every possible field. You are just an NA-er that cant keep up with the superior eu skills… ‘APM spammers blah blah blah’ so you start bashing the game and the genre. You are crystal clear to me.

But who would question MR World Superiority himself, not me for sure

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Thats fine. it’s still enjoyable to have these kinds of discussion.

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he is 4.8-5k NA 10 screen per minute slow as treacle, no camera locations, no hotkeys, drags the camera across the screen as if he is using arrow keys and not middle mouse/camera buttons. He relies on zerg early game to try to eek wins, and has the worst build orders. Sometimes he can win when the opponent messes up, that is the nature of things, make mistakes and you get punished, its about making the least mistakes more consistently over time, to which Batz can’t manage.

You can see his ‘epic’ battle strategy by sc2replaystats under bowlcut or slammer, But batz just accuses everyone of maphacking instead of being better than him.

If it is purely a multi tasking game then Batz has atrocious multitasking.

End of the day, I would just like for things to have more HP in general, things melt in microseconds, it doesn’t make for as engaging battles.

Avilo 2000 viewers LMAO . This guy still has a hate for neuro after he dumpstered him years ago, avilo is forced to a 30 viewer stream on youtube since he has been banned on every other platform on earth, and still lives at home with his dad and harasses women day and night like a criminal stalker creep and is reviled by the whole community .

meanwhile neuro travels to frostgiant, gets to have intercourse with Triciaxpain,is ripped and has the love and adoration of thousands.

Could they both have done more with degrees and flew higher to the sun who knows but they chose the paths they did and are living with those said paths, Neuro is one of enlightenment and success, avilo is one of degeneracy and pity.

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Not all internet randos are equal. Some have beaten PartinG and are Grandmaster with troll builds.

I worked in the game design industry for over 10 years.

:rofl:

What are you talking about? I am one of the APM spammers. I got into Grandmaster with totally randomized build orders specifically to prove the point that clicking fast is the only thing you need to be good at SC. I came to this conclusion AGAINST my own biases. Do you think I like to reduce my own accomplishments? If I were biased, I would be saying GM in SC2 is a pinnacle achievement of human intellect. It’s not. It’s about clicking fast.

I don’t care about my ego, I care about being realistic. Being realistic is my #1 priority in life. Look at these two charts:

https://i.imgur.com/68UZ6qj.png

The relationship here is crystal clear. Practice makes you faster, and being faster makes you good at the game. Being fast is 95% of the game, and practice is 95% of being fast. That means SC2 is 95% a game of grinding APM spam.