My Proposed Balance Patch

Co-op Missions Discussion
21

Smart servos in nova campaign also lets hellions fire while moving. I’d like that. Also, thor’s 330mm cannons already has like 0.25 sec wind-up and wind-down, it doesn’t need to be faster, it just needs to be cancel-able.

I feel like this should be an upgrade of some sort, maybe have it built into regenative bio-steel (same tier on WoL lab console).

Again, could simply be added onto existing upgrades, so that amon’s cyclones and hellions aren’t improved. (Cyclones especially can be irritating in the early game).

Zag changes seem ok, I’d perfer to have bile launchers have their upgrades baseline though (if you’re getting bile launcher ups, you’re stalling your zergling upgrades. and you’re not going to make TWO spawning pools)

Why shield armor though, wouldn’t life armor have so much more synergy with reconstruction beam and repair drones?

22

Good idea, will edit in soon.

Also a good idea.

Not gonna lie, didn’t know adding it to a unit baseline also changes it for Amon. In that case, yes, it should be added to already existing upgrades.

A sound idea, I did not consider that!

23

This is why raynor and Amon got battlecruiser Yamato buffs: they use the same base ability.
If you want a list of changes that would be cool (not necessarily balanced): https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/random-karax-ideas/504
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/random-alarak-ideas/1938
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/random-stukov-barracks-ideas/1640
Maybe a bit of a shameless plug but hey, you can’t put a price on creativity

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24

I can’t check it out right now but will give it a read. Right now I have many other ideas I am still trying to figure out, so maybe these will give me just the push I need for a breakthrough. Good on you, brother.

25

That would help Hellion-Cycle, but Hellions would still be hyper-specialized for infested maps and swarmy comps.

So far as Hellbat tanking goes, a typical Hercules-delivered field of Seige Tanks and Goliaths generally blasts everything before it can do much damage: and some well-placed SV shields are the best protection.

H&H really has the bet Hellions and Hellbats, because the Hellions have a relevant weapon and their both expendable units with powerful death effects.

Given how enthusiastic Swann was to build Diamondbacks in the campaign, it’d be really nice if he got them in Coop.

It’s not hard to image Cyclones retooled to be a mobile anti-air counterpart to Diamondbacks for a cool fire on the move comp.

I hope some commander gives us non-infested Diamondbacks in the future.

I can’t deny that Swann’s build-up is super slow, and while his late game is strong, it’s not really exceptional nowadays.

You’re probably right on the Thors, really. His Goliaths are so powerful and economical with gas that they’d probably always have a role.

True on Zagara’s Banelings, though I tend to just save up the free ones to supplement Abberation / Swarmling waves.

It’d be nice if she could uproot Bile Launchers at least, encouraging her to creep spread for them.

Maybe her Corrupters should cost less gas. The Baneling incubation helps Aberrations more because they cost 68 gas to the Corrupters 90.

Or maybe they could get the old Wings of Liberty ability to Corrupt structures to disable them, or an upgrade to let them Corrupt multiple enemies.

Zagara would like the ability to shut down defensive structures.

Karax seems to have the most durable and powerful base defenses of anyone, though that means investing resources into something that can’t move.

I’m unsure on buffing his units.

Nova’s Hellbats are just weird: basically a suicidal unit for a commander who wants to avoid any deaths.

That and Nova herself is an incredible tank and swarm killer, which renders them a bit pointless.

26

Destroyers themselves just need their bounce damage changed and they’re good to go. It apparently only does 1 damage, even at +3. If it was percentage damage, then it’d be way better.
As for Masteries… I don’t really have much issue with them. My only major changes would be to either Ascendant ramp-up time (changing how the stacks scale), the Vanguard’s weapons, and changing War Prism holding space so that you can quickly move about the map without waiting for your Ascendants or Robo units and their slow, lumbering pace.

All around I’m pretty pleased with Alarak. Global 1QE2C, while an unintentional interaction, was fun as hell. Would love to have that back.

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27

I have long felt that they needed a drastic overhaul on their special ability. It’s just so out of place on Nova’s kit, when there are better tools that could be given to them in place of Jumpjets.

My favorite is the Ionic Force Field from her campaign, 20 second duration and 30 second cooldown that starts on autocast once researched for the Rangers. Either 200 or 300 strength force field that reduces all damage to a maximum of 10. This solidifies the Hellbat Rangers as a powerful tanking unit that doesn’t jump the hell out of position and get themselves killed. Also makes the Hellion Rangers viable since the shield ability would be compatible for this form too, allowing them to rush by and scout for certain kinds of daring plays or cheese that need vision.

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28

Hellions role is to transfer the Hellbats across the map fast without a Hercules. They are also there so Cyclones don’t take damage, as they are easy to replace.

As far as Diamondbacks go, I won’t quote everything you said, but yeah. Swann is so happy about them and then nobody has them. It was planned during the development phase for Swann, they would’ve benefitted from Immortality Protocol, but nope. Cyclone instead, which is especially a shame since the anti-ground aspect of Swann is a lot less contested than the anti-air part. I think DBs would fit into Swann’s kit still, especially if some buffs are applied to them (similarly to Cyclones). And yeah, I always imagined Cyclones like Swann’s Missile Turrets with two different anti-air attacks.

Swarmlings are good for cleaning up, but the ultimate Zagara composition is mass Banelings (or Scourges). They do so much damage.

I’m not really sure about Corruptors yet, as is, they are not a stellar unit.

It’s a debate and a half, but he’s up there in the top bunch. Swann, Karax and Stukov - and now Mengsk - are all very good at defense. Some have more flexibility, some have more survivability, the problem is there are not many maps that encourage taking things slow.

I’d rather buff his static but there’s always a noticeable pushback when I propose that. Some of his units need some changes, I believe the Colossus and the Energizer ideas are solid.

And I love them for it.

This one, I like. Will read up further.

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29

Now these are the kind of discussions I like to see!

Swann

-Giving more units MLWS is definitely a good move, as it’s a big reason why Goliaths are so powerful and so dominant in his build options. I would probably remove the Pulse Amplifier (damage bonus on moving) from Wraiths to compensate, as giving them both would probably be too powerful, and MLWS alone would make Wraiths a much more viable unit.
-Attack on the move for Hellions is cute, I really wish we could just give him his beloved Diamondbacks instead, but what can you do.
-I would also add that Cyclones should get the rework they were given in Versus a long while back to make them more of a standard unit, it’s bizarre that Swann’s Cyclones haven’t been given the same treatment.

Karax

-Nexuses don’t already auto-Chrono themselves? This might just be a bug from a recent patch, I’ve never known this to be a problem before.
-I don’t know if disable Basic Attack on Energizers is the answer, I’d just give him another ground-to-air unit that draws better aggro and leave it at that, like Adepts maybe.
-Also, it really needs be said that the increased cost on his units just needs to go. I get that he’s designed to be the defensive Protoss commander supplementing his cannons with elite units, but his units have never been particularly elite and Zeratul really outshines him in this regard; let Karax just have his army as a viable alternative to cannons, even if it isn’t as strong.

Alarak

-I’d also make it so his Ascendants share his “sacrifice other units instead of dying” passive, but only for Supplicants. This would help ensure such expensive and time-consuming units aren’t lost to a random snipe, but would also ensure that you can’t just throw them into any army and make them additional hero units, you need to build around them. It also shouldn’t count for gaining power stacks.

Nova

-If you reduce the cooldown on Airstrike, the cost should also be increased; it’s pretty strong as is and has a Mastery that makes it cheaper, letting it have both would just be nuts.

Stukov

-Not sure how I feel about the Ventral Sac change, this could potentially present some computer-breaking lag if someone scoops up all their Infested waves into Overlords for long periods of time (since neither Infested or Overlords have a supply limit to keep their numbers down) then unloading them all at once to have a few thousand Infested on the map at one time. Could easily see some disconnects and/or griefing happening over this.

Han & Horner

-I would also make it so Assault Galleons gain benefits of both Significant Others bonuses when they get Drone Hangar upgrades (i.e. both increased attack speed for Horner unit supply and health regen for Han unit supply). IIRC they only get the attack speed right now and that can lead to them taking a beating given how big and slow they are, necessitating manual repairs mid-mission. It would also increase incentive to spend the gas and supply on the drone upgrade.

Rest of the changes seem pretty solid, providing QoL changes or beefing up units that see little use right now.

30

This makes sense to me. Since he can make two units at a time, than two workers at a time fits within the theme.

31

Too much buff and not enough nerf => Herasy !
Jokes aside, these change would be great except for Nova, adding only 60s is still really quick for an ability that can wipe any wave that don’t have Hybrids.
Also, there are some small issue regarding her Ghost prioritization, they are put as the lowest in priority eeventhough they have EMP which is great against Protoss and good against any spell caster. I suggest put them behind Raven instead.

32

Corruptors need more than Corruption on autocast to help them be viable alternatives to mass Scourge let alone be useful in sustained combat.

Corruptor’s damage will still pale in comparison to mass Scourge even with Corruption on autocast. Also, Corruptors are one of a few units that actually do not have any upgrades that you can purchase from their required structure.

One idea I’ve brought up before is to give them a triple attack upgrade which is very much a copy of Zagara’s Medusa Blades upgrade where she can hit 3 targets at the same time.

33

The point of corruptors is to supplement her scourge and banelings, not replace them.
For the price of 4 scourge, you increase the damage an enemy takes by a lot (50%, 30%, I don’t remember). If you’re going to cheese void thrashing by flying in a cloud of scourges, a corruptor makes it so you effectively have 30% more scourges.
Similar thing for oblivion express or part and parcel, increasing the damage output of all your units against a beefy target is quite useful.

The idea is good on paper, but the problem comes with how slow corruptors are (an autocast could help fix this problem) and the long cooldown on corruption. Make corruptors fly as fast as scourge, reduce corruption cooldown to 5-15 seconds, and allow corruption to target structures.

34

I like them overall!

Personally I’d maybe change the buff to Alarak’s Vanguard to give them maybe a few less shots (say 12ish) but give them a bit of extra damage and a small amount of shot tracking instead. Because the buff to shots would get hurt hard by armour.

Otherwise, we probably should cut the Wraith moving damage a bit if we wanna give it shoot and move.

All in my opinion, of course.

35

To some extent perhaps. But Corruptors are supposed to be frontline anti-air attackers equivalent to Vikings and Phoenix. If their primary role is to spit Corruption to help Scourge, they are more like Vipers than anything else and that is a disservice to their intended design.

They got a movement speed buff in Zagara’s revamp; they fly nearly as fast as Scourge.

36

But why wouldn’t you just mow over air units with scourge? Against pretty much every air comp, scourge high damage, cheap cost, and AoE make them better for dealing with air. In this situation, any other dedicated anti air is going to pale in comparison, so adding and emphasizing a support function is probably the easiest way to get corruptors used more.

The “slow” nature of corruptors also refers to their use. If scourge are faster than corruptors at all, there’s going to be no time to get use out of corruption. I guess being slow as much of a problem so much as they’re less responsive.

37

That’s part of the problem - Scourge are just way too good.

That would further pigeonhole Corruptors into the spellcaster role thus forces Zagara to build Scourge every time she needs anti-air. At worst, it defeats the idea of a sustained, non-suicidal combat build for Zagara which is what the OP wants.

For a non-suicide build to be useful, Corruptors need something on top of autocast Corruption to help close the damage gap between them and mass Scourge. That’s my point.

38

If anything, Corruptors should be better just so players have more options. Zagara is already so one-dimensional enough as it is without her limited unit options being made even worse by virtue of just how outclassed Corruptors are compared to Scourge.

Why should players be shoehorned into just using Scourges instead of having a reasonably potent sustained damage option for her air-to-air?

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39

I don’t necessarily agree with every specific change or think they’re the only way to solve things, ex. the Vega nerfs seem a little unnecessary (not game ruining, just unnecessary) but most of these sound like they would be fun to try honestly. The Nova airstrike cooldown is probably one of the most fair ways I’ve seen to nerf that ability without ruining it (and I love the ranger buffs!). Stukov regen sounds like ridiculous fun as well.

Thanks for sharing regardless, it’s fun reading changelists that try to minimize the changes rather than going over the top.

40

Cyclone in theory isn’t that bad

Goliath is 23(11 Air+ 12 Ground) dps with if it can multitarget ground and air at the same time
33(21 Air+ 12 Ground) dps if air is armored

Cyclone is 37.5 dps with lock on 6 second cooldown, treated as a spell in regards to mechanics (shoots while feared, ignores armor ect.)
18 dps otherwise

Very few targets have enough hp to last 6 seconds of lock on. I’m pretty sure the Autocast doesn’t have any logic other than use on the first target it attacks and isn’t on cd. Having it on manual mode is a poor choice too because the CD could have already been halfway done if you had just autocast it.

Decreasing the CD and giving it better movespeed is all it really needs.