it’s good that they want to buff mother ship, too, to make it even easier for toss to control.
even ling have zerg´s conditions: you need hive, otherwise useless.
2 Likes
True. By the way, did you notice they nerfed the zergling in the new patch? Yep. They did. The mothership is designed to counter the +2 adrenal runbies. That’s why it has 6x low damage attacks. It’s quite obviously specially designed to beat zerglings. Toss will put the mothership at a base and it will be impossible to attack it between the 6x attack and the cloak.
1 Like
makes complete sense… ZvP is toss favoured, Top Toss struggle mostly in TvP.
What is the solution? buff toss for ZvP. Balance team in 2024. there are still ~20% Zerg in Gm.
I just counted the top 100 accounts ranked worldwide. Protoss has 53 of those slots. Zerg has 23. So you’re pretty close in your estimate. Protoss are 2:1 in GM and 2:1 in ESL cups. Crazy. The only exception to this trend is premier tournaments.
It blows my mind that the race doing so well is also the race everyone talks about being underpowered. SC2 had a massive management failure that allowed so many people to believe “everything under the sun is game balance’s fault” and the protoss issue is the perfect example. It’s objectively overpowered. It’s as black and white, as yes and no, as an answer can be, but they believe it’s weak and they believe this weakness causes premier tournament outcomes. It’s legit sc2’s own version of flat earth.
Why on Earth would they want to make premier tournaments like the rest anyway? It’s not enough to dominate everything else – even premier tournaments need to be 50% protoss? That’s not going to be good for esports, you know what I mean. That will be bad.
2 Likes
Corruptors are actually much better against Carriers than Vikings are, so this is more about Storm, Archons, and falling behind on upgrades than the strength of the anti-air unit.
Storm itself is also more deadly to Vikings than it is to Corruptors due to the Viking’s combination of lower speed and health, but Terran has Ghosts to counteract that.
1 Like
Not a chance. The range is the primary issue late game and vikings have 9 range while Corruptors are range 6. Skytoss is very rarely used vs terran, and every time it is used it’s easily beaten.
By contrast even top Zergs like Serral and Dark are on the struggle-bus vs carriers and frequently lose and even smash the keyboard with their fists. I regularly drop games vs carrier abusers 1,000 mmr lower than me but have no problems beating a 6k mmr protoss if he’s doing blinkstalker colossus instead. Carriers create a legit 2,000 mmr difference in performance. They are flipping nuts. Thank god most protoss don’t do them. Only a small handful do.
By the way, this is why I am very surprised to not see a viking nerf in the new patch. I thought for sure they’d nerf the viking to help Protoss out. The viking in general is a big issue because it over-counters the colossus and it over-counters the carrier and most especially it extreme hard counters the tempest. The viking is quite obviously the primary issue with PvT balance.
The viking issue is actually downstream from the feedback nerf. It used to be that you could kill medivacs w/ feedback. You can’t anymore. How does this impact vikings? Terran can only transition to making vikings if he has a decent medivac count. If toss shaves off a few medivacs with feedback, the terran has to choose medivacs OR vikings and can’t have both. In these kinds of fights, like maru vs hero above, the terran would have 2-4 fewer vikings. That just might make these attacks hold-able.
1 Like
Problem is most people only watch Premier tournaments, so they don’t play themselves anymore or don’t watch smaller / major tournaments.
not sure, i would say it’s more of a micro thing.
better control viking better, bad control corrupter better.
Vikings can’t get much better than focus-firing, and they require focus-fire to compete at most supply counts.
Corruptors do not need to focus-fire, although you can still do it for optimal results. The differences are below:
DPS:
- Vikings have 12-14 DPS (editor values) depending on shields. That is 16.8 - 19.6 DPS on faster.
- Corruptors have 9.47 - 10.547 DPS (editor values) depending on shields. That is 13.26 - 14.7368 DPS on faster.
Health:
- Vikings have 135 health with no armor.
- Corruptors have 2 armor and 200 health, giving them “effectively” 333.333 health versus Carriers when that armor is taken into account.
Breakdown:
- The DPS favors Vikings by a factor of 1.26 to 1.33 depending on whether you are hitting the Carrier’s armor or shields.
- The effective hit points favor Corruptors by a factor of 2.469 when the effects of armor are taken into account.
- The effective hit points still favor Corruptors by a factor of 1.48 when armor is ignored.
In short, Vikings are not even close to as good against Carriers as Corruptors are; and if the opponent can reach both Vikings and Corruptors, the Corruptors will still perform better against Carriers.
1 Like
nice data. i think you forgot one point, didn’t you? Range.
Corruptor: 6
Viking: 9
Carrier: 8
That’s why I said it depends on micro. you have other options besides direct combat.
Vikings do not have enough of a range advantage to realistically kite Carriers. Kiting actually makes the trades worse, not better.
So yes, Corruptors are significantly better than Vikings against Carriers. It is not close.
You can see this in the video I linked.
The marines are very slightly forward and this draws the aggro of the interceptors, keeping the vikings safe. Corruptors by contrast are close enough the interceptors aggro on them, the archons aggro on them, etc. Additionally, the range makes it harder to storm the vikings compared to corruptors which have to get a lot closer.
So yeah vikings are way better vs carriers than corruptors are. Maybe in a vacuum corruptors are better but in a real game scenario they are definitely worse.
Then there is also the fact that vikings have a dual use. You can land the vikings an use them as anti ground. Corruptors really only have 1 use late game and it’s to amove the opponent’s anti air. This is a big deal because corruptors are hyper vulnerable to things like mass stalker archon zealot remaxes. The corruptors are useless after winning the air fight.
1 Like
?
They’re changing it back to the old techlab cyclone to promote stargate play in TvP. Tempests are also the far better lategame units in the next patch, which scales according to skill level.
Vikings over counter all protoss higher tech. Everything from colossus to carriers. The alternative to colossus is the disruptor and the reason for that is because it avoids the viking problem.
I think the cyclone in general aggravates PvT balance issues because a key part of Maru’s dominance on the GSL, over protoss like Zest and Trap, was due to the cyclone.
Lol, took less than a minute to find an example:
Why wouldn’t the same dynamic apply with the modern cyclone? So he reactors out 4 hellions then swaps to a techlab for cyclones and puts his rax back on the reactor to make marines. I guess it would delay stim?
1 Like
A nerfed Viking wouldn’t be an effective counter to Carriers. While Vikings can currently beat Carriers on equal supply, it is by a very tight margin and it typically requires focus-fire. The gap between Corruptors versus Carriers is much larger until other things get involved.
That can be mitigated by using Zealots, Disruptors, High Templar, or other units on the Protoss side to help take down the Terran front-line, one of those (HT) doubles as a threat to the Vikings.
The Corruptor’s stats allow it to remain effective against Carriers with more interference; although Zerg may have more trouble denying Storms, Stalkers, etc.
Can you guys spot the f2 that lost creator the game?
He repeatedly f2’s the zealots out of serral’s natural, resulting in them basically walking back and forth during time they could’ve put damage in somewhere such as the main mineral line. He also has no clue how to setup a flank, apparently. You send half the zealots into the nat, wait for the third’s roaches to move to intercept, then come in with the second half and get a sandwich. Creator played like a donkey and 100% deserved this loss. A game like this should never be used as a standard for beating the world’s best zerg. The dude clearly refuses to multiprong and flank with 2 hotkeys.
The problem in the pro scene is that the typical protoss competitors are comically bad compared to clem and serral. You can’t expect f2 amove micro to beat the world’s best zerg. It’s crazy talk to expect a dude who won’t split and focus fire to win. Why is this quality of play even qualifying for tournaments.
Anytime the zealots are walking back and forth between the third is time the zealots aren’t putting damage onto hatcheries and drones and is more time for roaches to pop out. This attack should have been game over with a simple flank but the worst possible outcome should’ve been serral holds but loses the natural and main hatcheries. That was a guaranteed outcome if creator simply clicked the hatcheries instead of running back and forth doing nothing.
It’s extremely frustrating that the community has such an incredibly low bar but only for the protoss. If a zerg played this poorly there would be no doubt in anyone’s mind that he deserved the loss. Imagine zerglings that could’ve shredded 2 minerals lines but instead are repeatedly f2’d back and forth between the third and natural.
Protoss wondering why they can’t win tournaments be like.
Lol the more I watch the more mistakes I see. He f2’s his phoenix into a spore crawler rather than picking up a queen.
Show me the protoss who uses 2 hotkeys and I will show you the protoss who wins premier tournaments.
The “modern” Cyclone can be produced in larger numbers, has a better auto-attack when not locked on, has a shorter cooldown between lock-ons, and has more health both in terms of supply and as an individual unit.
This means that lifting up the 2-supply Cyclones is far less effective than lifting up the 3-supply Cyclones. If you lift up a 3 supply Cyclone, you interrupt its lock-on, reduce its damage output, you don’t take as many hits because there won’t be as many other Cyclones around it, and you kill it faster. Even if the lift is canceled, the Cyclone still has a longer down-time on its lock-down and deals less damage at less range in the meantime.
Substitute vikings for ravens and that’s how you get the best terran in the world proxying in all his TvPs. In the next patch, you will kite vikings with tempests over shield battery+ cannon, laugh, then if they over commit it’s storm central.
You think hellion drops will work when they can monitor 1 base plays with a quick hallucination instead of playing a guessing game? The hallucination will be following the medivac the entire time.
You have so much faith that they will be able to utilize the scouting to figure out what’s going on. But I remember playing a single PvZ on test maps and my protoss opponent had no clue what was happening even though he had oracles zipping over every inch of my base. I even built all the tech buildings in my main.
In theory the phoenix will follow the medivac, but will it really.
Reliable scouting information can be a downside, too. You can show them something that looks like a hellion drop but isn’t. It’s an empty medivac. You actually started a third CC. Too bad the phoenix was busy chasing the medivac instead of scouting the main. By the time the toss realizes what’s up, it’s too late. Timings are missed.
Then there is the infamous double bluff. If they start calling your 3cc bluff you actually do medivac drop them. Now can they trust their scouting information at all? What even was the point of scouting in the first place except to waste energy? Best to bank that energy instead.
The great thing about this is that you don’t even have to do it. 1/3rd of the opponents will do the hellion drop and 1/3rd will do 3cc and the toss doesn’t know if you are column A or column B or even the mysterious column C that can do both or a mixture.
The reason why players like Byun rely on mechanics to defend allins is because scouting information is manipulable and can’t be trusted. It’s ironically safer to not expend resources on scouting.
I just thought of an example of this historically. Bomber and Innovation used to make 2 hellions then repeatedly rally them past the overlord pillar and circle them back. They had the hellion production timings mapped out so that it looked like they made 8 hellions when in reality it was 2 hellions into 3cc. They would make sure to check overlord positions with their scv scout so they know where to reveal the hellions.
Innovation was so good at mind gaming with his hellions that sometimes he actually would go 6 or 8 hellions and a liberator and just collect a free win. Toss get scouting but is that a good thing or a bad thing. Well if you think the people who are used to free-winning every defensive situation with 1 click are ready for the mind games of scouting then all I can do is face palm. Scouting is a gift and a curse. Their real issue isn’t the lack of scouting, it’s the lack of mechanics. You can’t rely on scouting but you can rely on your mechanics, if you have the mechanics that is.
Why was the widow mine drop nerfed again? Why am I asking. No reason. Pure coincidence.
1 Like
Best way fix carriers is to make drone weak in health and highly vunable to aoe.
They have way too much health 80 they need 10/20.
Why so aoe can easily take them but remove cost but make where can be cronoed.
I would say dbl damaged so microed would allow toss be damaging but a move they can be easily stopped by
Infestors
Vipers
Liberators
Basic defensive can stop them to degree.
My favourite build on the PTR was going a single banshee after they went sentry opener. Don’t even need cloak, just dive in grab the sentry walk out. Huk used my ultra greedy sentry into 3 nexus build but didn’t scout the cloaked banshees because of this.
1 Like