What? Bro are you drunk?
I think you’re the one who is delusional. Perhaps I will be kind enough to explain it to you, even though it will be a futile effort because you will only see what you want to see.
Your anecdotal accounts are not facts. They are you just compiling your data from a super-limited sample and you coming up with a biased conclusion. 95% of the PvT you’ve watched is getting smashed just means you’re watching games where Protoss loses to Terran. It is irrelevant to balance, and it doesn’t mean you are right about PvT.
WildRage has provided a much larger and fairer sample and proven you wrong with cold facts, hard data and actual statistics rather than anecdotes of whatever he watched. You seem to be closing your ears and screaming to drown out the actual facts because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I’m sorry that actual statistics derived from a larger sample does not fit your biased agenda, but no matter how many times you blind yourself to the truth, it doesn’t mean you are correct.
I’ve been saying it for a while that roaches (mixed with some lings if you want) are way too good for the money vs. Protoss. GSL ST1 Patience vs somebody, great example. Ridiculous example. Is Blizzard even care or paying attention? a stupid 75/25 tier 1 unit that counters every gateway unit is just plain dumb. Been saying it for like 2 years now but its especially bad now since immortals and WP cost so much. Really can’t afford to make many units when macroing and building up your 2 base economy. Protoss is just weak now except for midgame and having to outplay the opponent and give yourself an edge that can carry forward to the main big fight(s) which P has to win or there dead (cant remax like zerg or have turtle city type base building like terran where a few tank shots can obliterate army.
Edit: But that is more low leaque…(terran buildings anyway)(Pro Protoss have nice micro and will get vision and snipe it with stalkers)
But Yeah, I agree with one of my old comments: Zerg nerds to get swarmier and weaker again but not op. Protoss needs to get harder in some ways, like how it was before with like perfect spellcasting…(hots etc.)
Anyways, going ot play Apex legends
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The problem is the stalker,is a bad unit,yes it jumps,but the stats are awful. 1 stalker is about the same in terms of stats except range and blink. Thats why protoss masses inmortals,they do what stalkers should.
But I’m not sure how could be improved, that attempt to redesign it ended in a powerful stalker that steamrolled terrans.
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First off, I didn’t even read his post because it’s not in English. Second, I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say to me; I assert a qualitative opinion of the game through my experience in Master league and through what I see in pro games (this is what 99% of SC commentators do, including pros); I call out things like the fact that Terran have 50 ways to wipe out a Toss mineral line while P has almost no forms of effective harass in return. I don’t need to run a statistical analysis to prove Swarmhost Nydus is OP. I have never claimed I have DEFINITIVE PROOF that the game is X Y or Z; I assert my OPINION of the game based upon what I see as an experienced player/pro-game observer. According to you, only PHDs in statistics can comment on balance; obviously, this is an extremely stupid position to take, especially considering the fact that win-rates explain very little about what’s actually going on in the game (e.g., if the only Protoss build that worked was Cannon Rush and it was 100% win-rate, would you say the game is “balanced” and in a healthy state?).
As far as numbers are concerned, they are generally on my side as Protoss has been the lagging race for the last 1000 periods, we haven’t had any Toss success in the pro scene, etc. I still also don’t see how every P getting absolutely smashed in pro-play this patch is irrelevant (“but dehhh sampleeee sizeeeee”; gtfo); it’s like saying nobody could complain about Winfestors because it was anecdotal (they should really be running statistical analysis on Winfestor usage right?).
This is just a classic tactic from the TCF; when Terran gets exposed, you resort to the statistics attack. Guess what, the game has always been in the +/- 5% win-rate range for its entire history just based upon the way matchmaker works, it proves nothing; we know for a fact that there have been periods of great imbalance, greatly OP units, greatly OP builds, etc., which would not be readily visible in the stats.
P.S. Go tell PiG, BeastyQT, etc. that they can’t comment on balance without statistics.
P.P.S. I have resorted to proxy double-robo every PvT and my win-rate in PvT is now way up; what does that prove? My PvT stats are improved but it doesn’t show the fact that macro-PvT is extremely difficult. Same goes with my PvZ; I two-base or three-base all-in every game; balanced? Everyone knows there is no P late-game against Z.
P.P.P.S. ShowTime now calls Toss the extinct race; I guess he is an idiot like me?
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Yes we had, but only when something was really good.Protoss is the cheese race, it is designed to be weird, so once you buff something, it can be used for cheesing. At ladder it’s a strong race, but in tournaments, you can’t rely on cheese forever unless you are Has, and playing macro can be a problem against certain timings.
Dude just stop. The greatest protoss player of LotV is stats and he is as macro as it gets.
Zest is the only other player in LotV who won something more than a lousy super tournament, and he did so off the back of macro games
The pinnacle of protoss has literally been macro players and youre pushing this fake narrative of being a cheese race, when the fact of the matter is that it has only become a garbage meme race because it was nerfed thanks to years of terran whine. Meanwhile the greatest cheeser of all time in $O$, two time world champion, and still has the macro to go toe toe toe with innovation in macro games, cannot win anything anymore
Protoss GOATs like Rain Stats and Zest are macro legends but Protoss is nothing more than a cheese race guys
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lol he basically gave up the argument when he characterized Protoss as the “cheese race”, suggesting the race is trash at the core and can only win using surprising and “weird” cheeses; speaks volumes.
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And the fact that he referenced Has of all people…it’s obvious he has an extremely casual understanding of what’s going on.
Yes,‘‘macro’’ who is usually some sort of gimmicky timing (gladept timings+prism,dt drop/archon,phoenix/oracle+phoenix,blinkstalker) hoping to deal enough damage before/during getting the second base.
Only when there were really powerful protoss units, toss could play real face to face macro games, before many things got nerfed. Clearly if you want to have the edge with protoss you must play this way, timings,all ins, cheeses and proxies.You can’t play safe while expanding your macro and keeping an eye to upcoming attacks. And the sucess, well, for Stats 4 tournament wins (one of them weak tournament) and six 2nd places in five years and Zest…well, his last tournament win was in 2017 and was a Homestory cup and his last big sucess was during Katowice when he onetricked to death.
I referenced Has because he is a really bad player compared to the average pro, but he plays weird games, and because of that, he even is able to appear in some tournaments.
So are you guys gonna start pointing out the issues with ballance with examples of pro games and pro players saying these things need to be adressed or is it only based on your own personal experience and opinions?
PVT’s issues come down to this:
For Protoss most Gateway units do not scale well into the late game(Stalkers, Sentries, Adepts).Buffing these gateway units would help in PvZ too.
For Terran Mech in TvP needs to be more viable and buffed in such a way it doesn’t make it too strong in TvZ.
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Do you have any pro players backing this up?
Gateway units have never scaled well into lategame and for most of sc2 this has not been an issue since protoss has been stronger in lategame for most of sc2 lifetime despite this.
It’s called knowing the game, Balance Team.
It’s always been an issue from the start.
Mass Carrier supported by HT was stronger in the late game. Not Protoss itself and that is a huge difference.
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It doesn’t mean anything unless you can demonstrate skill is roughly equal within the sample. I have looked to see if it is, and it is not. Protoss has higher skill representation (on average) than terran. That means if skill were equal, the winrate would be lower for protoss.
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For most of hots and wol terran could not really fight protoss lategame at the top level, protoss having stronger armies for head on fight (storm + colossus in hots and wol was insane) and faster production (warp gate + chrono) meaning lategame favored protoss.
Unless you have anything to go off outside what you or anyone else on the forum says then its not very strong arguement considering if players mutch better than yourself dont see the matchup the same way its probably wrong what youre saying.
Protoss design philosophy has been strong tech units supported by t1 units unlike terran thats stronger t1 supported by tech.
Also i remember protoss players on forum was saying pvt was terran favored on last patch despite most if not all pro protoss players said it was protoss favored and terran needed help to make the matchup more fair, so i dont really believe you if all you have is your own statements.
Wrong.
Protoss is Gateway units supported by high tech units.
You really got frustrated with Observers didn’t you?
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verb If you support someone or their ideas or aims, you agree with them, and perhaps help them because you want them to succeed.
By this definition we now have a base to start the discussion around what is the supporting unit and what is the core units.
In wol and lotv protoss relied heavily on the collosus and rest of the composition was usually build around keeping them alive outside high templar that also could be used to kill non colossus threats but also support the collosus. By this logic i would conclude the collosus being the core of the lategame protoss army and the rest was there more or less to keep collosus alive and allowing them to do their job, stalkers often blinked towards the vikings or corruptors to save the collosus (therefore the focus was to kill units being a threat to the collosus not the gateway units).
Terran on the other hand usually worked the other way around where they want to counter the bio counters so your bio could then win the fight against the remaining army. Vikings dying did not really mather as long as they can deal with the collosus, ghosts just wanted to emp templars as well as the enemy army while bio being the main focus keeping alive towards the end of the battle for the cleanup.
By this logic id argue its pretty clear protoss tech units being the core of the army (specificly the collosus) while bio being the core of terran army.
Going into lotv blizzard specificly wanted to adress protoss being too reliant on tech units as core of their armies and the adept was introduced, troughout lotv lifetime we seen several periods where protoss gateway units being core (adept phoenix, mass chargelot vs terran) and it seems this style of protoss so far has been problematic partly due to their ability to make gateway units anywhere on the map they have a warp prism or pylons (there where other problems depending on wich strategy we look at).
If they where to make protoss more gateway dependent there is a possibility its not really possible due to how powerfull warp in is and it will need to remain a tech heavy race, however the current protoss is less tech reliant than hots and wol protoss where they among other had to defend on 2 bases in tvp untill colossus came in order to take a 3. etc.
verb If you support someone or their ideas or aims, you agree with them, and perhaps help them because you want them to succeed.
By this definition we now have a base to start the discussion around what is the supporting unit and what is the core units.
In wol and lotv protoss relied heavily on the collosus and rest of the composition was usually build around keeping them alive outside high templar that also could be used to kill non colossus threats but also support the collosus. By this logic i would conclude the collosus being the core of the lategame protoss army and the rest was there more or less to keep collosus alive and allowing them to do their job, stalkers often blinked towards the vikings or corruptors to save the collosus (therefore the focus was to kill units being a threat to the collosus not the gateway units).
Terran on the other hand usually worked the other way around where they want to counter the bio counters so your bio could then win the fight against the remaining army. Vikings dying did not really mather as long as they can deal with the collosus, ghosts just wanted to emp templars as well as the enemy army while bio being the main focus keeping alive towards the end of the battle for the cleanup.
By this logic id argue its pretty clear protoss tech units being the core of the army (specificly the collosus) while bio being the core of terran army.
Going into lotv blizzard specificly wanted to adress protoss being too reliant on tech units as core of their armies and the adept was introduced, troughout lotv lifetime we seen several periods where protoss gateway units being core (adept phoenix, mass chargelot vs terran) and it seems this style of protoss so far has been problematic partly due to their ability to make gateway units anywhere on the map they have a warp prism or pylons (there where other problems depending on wich strategy we look at).
If they where to make protoss more gateway dependent there is a possibility its not really possible due to how powerfull warp in is and it will need to remain a tech heavy race, however the current protoss is less tech reliant than hots and wol protoss where they among other had to defend on 2 bases in tvp untill colossus came in order to take a 3. etc.
Made you crack like an egg dropped from the empire state building.