How to use Stukov

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[Sounds of duplicating poops]

[TheFalcon-11772]

@Cerberus-12726

Well I appreciate the tips, noticed the starport was never mentioned though . I guess I have to get used to the timed nature of his army.

Just fyi Diamondbacks ensnare doesn’t work on Void Launch shuttles (true story almost typed Void Lunch anyway …) so you got to build turrets, use marines / troopers, or used infested liberators to take em down .

I like a few liberators sometimes with my Diamondbacks if an air comp is involved, or on Void Launch.

[Kilometer-11340]

@FearrWhalins-1432

So as someone pointed out on this week’s mutation topic, to be above B6, the total score has to be >20 of the 3 mutators. So in that list you’ll see many of the harder mutators repeatedly appear (and they are also common for B4-6), such as:

• Black Death
• Avenger
• Void Rift
• Just Die
• Polarity
• Propagator
• Etc.

Many of these are not a good match for mass bunkers at all. I’m not sure P3 can be deemed B4-6 “trivialized” as a prestige, especially when P1 is clearly stronger. I’m not even sure (as a whole) any/many prestige trivializes B4-6 level of difficulty (out of the 54 choices, not counting P0’s).

Why not? My Stukov ally pretty much playing P3 Stukov in most of his Stukov careers when playing B4~B6 together with me. My first screenshot already showing that my ally Stukov has no problem to overrun and brute force “Just Die” and “Void Reanimator”.

Except for Transmutation and Propagator, we usually don’t have a problem dealing with other mutators with P3 Stukov. Random Nuke and Blizzard could be problematic on certain maps where my P3 Stukov ally needs to forward his bunker thru the entire game.

Black Death, Fear, Power Overwhelming, Moment of Silence are non-factor because of P3 massive free units. I hope that you are no under impression that Black Death is powerful to kill all infested at the same time.

P3 Stukov has enough infested to “stall” the polarity units and Boom bots until my forces kill them all or dismantle the Boom bots.

Void Rift is the only problem for the beginning but once my ally reached a certain amount of bunker, he can literally accidentally killing void rift when he rallies his forces to Point A.

Do you have any idea how many infested that P3 Stukov can generate in the late game?

@FearrWhalins-1432

I am having a fairly difficult time believing this.

Here is one of the videos where my P3 Stukov ally holding the entire wave with heroes on his own.

StarCraft II - Brutal 6 - P3 Stukov holding Heroes of the Storm wave

There are more but it would take a lot of time for me to search it because those replays didn’t state which brutal difficulty and what mutators I am playing against, and I don’t feel it to watch every replay just to show you the footage where P3 Stukov is shining.

But there is nothing I can do if you refused to believe that P3 Stukov is actually good vs a lot of mutators.

[FearrWhalins-1432]

@Kilometer-11340

Why not?

Because I play coop and have been for a long time. So I understand where P3 mass bunker stand in relative power to other CO/prestige.

@Kilometer-11340

Do you have any idea how many infested that P3 Stukov can generate in the late game?

Yes, let me do some math for you to show a different perspective on how mediocre P3 is.

In the 200 supply cap for Stukov, approximately 150 of that can be your bunkers. 150 / 4 is about 38 infested bunkers. What does that mean? Not much really. In late game, it means for P3 with a 200% trooper boost, you’ll get 38 troopers every 10sec or so. That’s about it really. In comparison, 38 x 15min = 570min for infested barracks to keep up with that.

Damage wise, what does that look like? 38 x (6+3) = 342dmg total. They attack at a rate of 0.86sec, so your total DPS (assuming all are attacking at the same time, which often isn’t the case due to body blocking) is 397.7 or just under 400DPS.

Now let’s see what infested DBs look like. 150 / 3 = 50 units worth. 50 x (20+6) = 1300dmg total. Attack rate of 1sec, 1300DPS that attacks while moving. Downside? It’s not free units, but free units mean nothing if income isn’t an issue. At the 20min mark of your video, this is basically a moot point to talk about resources.

Mediocre is mediocre…

@Kilometer-11340

Here is one of the videos where my P3 Stukov ally holding the entire wave with heroes on his own.

Your game is B4, holding against 3 of the weakest heroes in HotS mutator. Getting lucky that none of the nukes dropped on them. Not to mention that you’re 20min into the game. Why do I mention that? Because if you’re measuring “how good” something is by using 5min over late game (15min+) marker as a measure, then every prestige and commander is ‘excellent’. I can, in your words, ‘trivialize’ HotS mutator too if you give me 20min to make an army with any prestige lol.

@Kilometer-11340

But there is nothing I can do if you refused to believe that P3 Stukov is actually good vs a lot of mutators.

Nobody’s saying P3 can’t deal with mutators in general. You’re over-selling to a new-Stukov player on how good P3 is.

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You’re free to believe P3 is so amazing that it trivializes B4-6. I’m not here to tell OP to play exactly how I’m telling him. However, the information provided certainly isn’t false if not biased.

[Kilometer-11340]

@FearrWhalins-1432

Because I play coop and have been for a long time. So I understand where P3 mass bunker stand in relative power to other CO/prestige.

It such a coincidence that I also playing coop for a long time (both of us is Lv1000) and all I knew that we have always had an easier time playing most B4~B6 when my ally picked P3 Stukov.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Yes, let me do some math for you to show a different perspective on how mediocre P3 is.

I thought we are talking about how P3 Stukov “trivialized” most of the B4~B6 mutations here. What does it have to do with DPS again?

This is how P3 Stukov armies look like in the late game:
https://i.imgur.com/wud66iS.png

@FearrWhalins-1432

Your game is B4, holding against 3 of the weakest heroes in HotS mutator.

I am pretty sure that I am playing B6 though as it is a common routine for us to play and win at least 1 B6 game every night. Too bad that I can’t access the score screen after the game as the exp bonus should able to differentiate whether it is B6 or B4.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Getting lucky that none of the nukes dropped on them. Not to mention that you’re 20min into the game.

Do you mean Nova’s nuke that can be baited by a simple Omega Worm?
https://i.imgur.com/83nEwSg.jpg

Sorry to disappointed you but we have played long enough to make sure Nova won’t nuke the bunkers or essential buildings and our real armies.

Since you INSISTED or IMPLIED that P3 Stukov will be failed had the nuke dropped on his infested.

Here is another video where my ally P3 Stukov holding the big wave with Heroes of the Storm alone:

StarCraft II - P3 Stukov VS Heroes of the Storm + Moment of Silence + Just Die

@FearrWhalins-1432

Why do I mention that? Because if you’re measuring “how good” something is by using 5min over late game (15min+) marker as a measure, then every prestige and commander is ‘excellent’. I can, in your words, ‘trivialize’ HotS mutator too if you give me 20min to make an army with any prestige lol.

And I measure how good is the commander is by seeing how many mutators can be trivialized and neutralized to the point we can simply finishing the B4~B6 comfortably.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Nobody’s saying P3 can’t deal with mutators in general. You’re over-selling to a new-Stukov player on how good P3 is.

I don’t see the falsehood in my claim as P3 Stukov can be neutralized and trivialized by most of the mutators. How often can you see a commander can wipe out entire armies in Brutal+ just by setting a rallying point with minimum micro?

@FearrWhalins-1432

You’re free to believe P3 is so amazing that it trivializes B4-6. I’m not here to tell OP to play exactly how I’m telling him. However, the information provided certainly isn’t false if not biased.

Of course, I do, hence I posted my thought about P3 Stukov in this thread. You are the one who came to challenged my thought because you don’t like P3 Stukov.

[FearrWhalins-1432]

I mean after reading your replies, it is pretty clear you don’t understand all the reasons why we disagree.

In every single image, video, “evidence” you present, the time is clearly showing it’s somewhere 20min-25min+. That isn’t robustness of P3 against mutators or “trivializing” anything. That’s just late-late game army decimating waves as it should.

I’d say if you find yourself “having an easier time” when your partner is playing P3, it’s because neither of you are pushing hard or fast enough ever (again given the time). And the combination of Kerrigan and P3 Stukov has better synergy than whatever you’re comparing to (I’m honestly not sure but see below).

I understand mutators generally push timings back (compared to Brutal games), but to have a 25min RtK without killing the 2nd bonus as you’re just reaching 4th set is pretty slow. If that’s what you INSIST as comfortable then I guess lol… that’s all you.

You keep measuring it all as being easy after 20-25min, that’s the very problem. Of course a “free resource” strategy is “seemingly easier” than remaking army. That’s like saying you’re +10/10 as P2 Zeratul after 20some minutes using cannons, and it’s “easier on DoN”… well no kidding

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Here’s an easy search of what I mean, simple comparison of your 28min game above:

• Tychus and Vorazun, both P0, a faster and harder B6 game (24min completion):
  Starcraft II: Rifts to Korhal BRUTAL +6 - YouTube
• Abathur and Zagara, both P0, a faster and B6 different mutator as a comparison (24min again):
  Starcraft II co-op Brutal +6 - Rifts To Korhal (2) - YouTube
• Zeratul and Swann, both P0, similar time and B6 different mutators as comparison (28min):
  COOP Brutal+6 Rifts to Korhal - Swann+ Zeratul - YouTube
• Fenix P2 solo B4 but on MO:
  Starcraft 2 Co-op Mutation #20: Growing Threat - Fenix Solo (p2) [=Brutal+4] - YouTube

What can someone take away from these? That your idea of “trivializing” B4-6 is just false. Or if it’s true then Tychus, Vorazun, Abathur (duh lol), Zagara, Zeratul, Swann P0’s, and Fenix P2 can all trivialize B4-6. And that’s just not true. What you're seeing is just late-game army killing stuff as they should be. Or perhaps half the CO’s “trivializes” B4-6… #sarcasm.

They can all handle B4-6 in the right hands but have very little to do with the actual commander (except the case of Abby P0). Then again, he is an exception to most things. Had you said Abby trivialize B6, then I’d kept quiet.

[Caffeine-2856]

@Kilometer-11340

Here is one of the videos where my P3 Stukov ally holding the entire wave with heroes on his own.

Can you please post the whole video. It’s likely that Stukov P3 was carried for the first half or at the very least significantly underperformed.

[Kilometer-11340]

@FearrWhalins-1432

I mean after reading your replies, it is pretty clear you don’t understand all the reasons why we disagree.

If anything, it is more like you don’t know what you are talking about here.

I said this:

@Kilometer-11340

At one point, he can even solo Heroes of the Storm mutator without my help.

and you said this:

@FearrWhalins-1432

I am having a fairly difficult time believing this.

So I showed you the video on how my ally holding the wave alone, and your response?

@FearrWhalins-1432

Getting lucky that none of the nukes dropped on them. Not to mention that you’re 20min into the game.

You mentioned “lucky nuke”, and “weakest heroes combination” with the intention of downplaying his feats, so I posted another video of him holding the entire wave alone with nuke included. So instead of admitting that he was indeed holding the Heroes of the Storm wave alone with a harder heroes combination? What was your response on this matter? You just went for the “too slow” comment instead. Pathetic is all I can say at this moment.

@FearrWhalins-1432

In every single image, video, “evidence” you present, the time is clearly showing it’s somewhere 20min-25min+. That isn’t robustness of P3 against mutators or “trivializing” anything. That’s just late-late game army decimating waves as it should.

Oh really? If you already knew that the late-game army decimating waves as it should be, then why are you telling me that you found it was hard to believe when I said my P3 Stukov ally holding the Heroes wave alone. Either you are contradicting yourself or you are trying so hard to save face here.

@FearrWhalins-1432

I’d say if you find yourself “having an easier time” when your partner is playing P3, it’s because neither of you are pushing hard or fast enough ever (again given the time). And the combination of Kerrigan and P3 Stukov has better synergy than whatever you’re comparing to (I’m honestly not sure but see below).

The purpose of the video is to show you that P3 Stukov ally is holding the Heroes wave with crazy mutators alone. It was a response to your “lucky nuke” statement, not the clear time.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Here’s an easy search of what I mean, simple comparison of your 28min game above:

Yes, if you are ignoring Just Die + Heroes of the Storm + Moment of Silence.

@FearrWhalins-1432

You keep measuring it all as being easy after 20-25min, that’s the very problem. Of course a “free resource” strategy is “seemingly easier” than remaking army. That’s like saying you’re +10/10 as P2 Zeratul after 20some minutes using cannons, and it’s “easier on DoN”… well no kidding

Wrong again. I never say anything about it being easy after 20~25 mins. It was you alone. All the videos so far that I linked are just showing you that P3 Stukov is holding the heroes wave alone to dispel your skepticism. I just said that P3 Stukov trivializes and neutralized most of the mutators so it gives us a comfortable/easier time when playing B4~B6.

@FearrWhalins-1432

What can someone take away from these? That your idea of “trivializing” B4-6 is just false. Or if it’s true then Tychus, Vorazun, Abathur (duh lol), Zagara, Zeratul, Swann P0’s, and Fenix P2 can all trivialize B4-6. And that’s just not true. What you're seeing is just late-game army killing stuff as they should be. Or perhaps half the CO’s “trivializes” B4-6… #sarcasm.

They can all handle B4-6 in the right hands but have very little to do with the actual commander (except the case of Abby P0). Then again, he is an exception to most things. Had you said Abby trivialize B6, then I’d kept quiet.

I never made a single comparison with other commanders here. I just telling the Topic Creator that P3 Stukov is strong enough to trivialize most mutators in B4~B6 with bunker build and hoping that he will be leveling the P3 or use it in the future in case he got stuck in his B4~B6 playthrough. It was you want to challenge me on this because you hate P3 Stukov so much that a mere thought of other people playing P3 Stukov at B4~B6 triggered you so badly.

[Caffeine-2856]

@Kilometer-11340

P3 Stukov trivializes and neutralized most of the mutators so it gives us a comfortable/easier time when playing B4~B6.

Is your disagreement perhaps simply a misunderstanding of words?

dictionary.cambridge.org Trivialize: to make something seem ordinary or unimportant

If B4-6 with Stukov P3 truly is just like normal brutal for any other CO or prestige then please post your whole video.

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

Oh god now these 2 are going to go at it.

[FearrWhalins-1432]

@Kilometer-11340

I never made a single comparison with other commanders here. I just telling the Topic Creator that P3 Stukov is strong enough to trivialize most mutators in B4~B6 with bunker build

Are you this oblivious?

To say Stukov P3 trivialize b4-6 mutations is to say “it makes them not matter”. Not matter in what sense? In the sense that “as if it wasn’t there”.

So how do we measure that? By comparing to other commanders or other difficulties. You can’t just go “well I believe P3 trivializes therefore it trivializes, AHA!”

You’ve neither shown that your games ran quickly like on Brutal (P1 can 1 base 16min RtK without help), hence I keep bring up your slow game time. Nor have you shown how it is “faster” than other commanders (if anything it’s slower, see links again previously). Showing P3 hold off a single wave of HotS during late game is like saying, “look Ma, I have hands… that’s great Jimmy.” Everybody has them - a late army that can hold off a wave of HotS. What a revelation lmao.

So what have you trivialize, except the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about?

[Kilometer-11340]

@FearrWhalins-1432

Are you this oblivious?

Are you just looking for a fight?

@FearrWhalins-1432

So how do we measure that? By comparing to other commanders or other difficulties. You can’t just go “well I believe P3 trivializes therefore it trivializes, AHA!”

By actually playing the Brutal+ and see whether you get good results or not with P3 Stukov?

@FearrWhalins-1432

You’ve neither shown that your games ran quickly like on Brutal (P1 can 1 base 16min RtK without help), hence I keep bring up your slow game time. Nor have you shown how it is “faster” than other commanders (if anything it’s slower, see links again previously). Showing P3 hold off a single wave of HotS during late game is like saying, “look Ma, I have hands… that’s great Jimmy.” Everybody has them - a late army that can hold off a wave of HotS. What a revelation lmao.

Cute. You were the one who brought up the issue when I said my P3 Stukov ally can hold the Heroes of the storm wave by himself. I am simply giving what you asked TWICE, but of course, you being a sore loser by keeping moving the goalpost instead of admitting “Oh I am sorry for doubt Stukov can hold the Heroes of The Storm on his own”.

As I said in my previous post if you knew P3 Stukov can hold Heroes of the Storm wave in the late game, why do you EVEN ASKED it in the first place? It was not like I ever said anything about my P3 Stukov ally can hold the waves at XXX time. Clearly, you were skeptical about it until I showed you the video, and of course, being a prideful person, you were downplaying his feats and then focusing on the other thing like “time”, “lucky nuke” and “weakest composition” excuse.

@FearrWhalins-1432

So what have you trivialize, except the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about?

Mutators that supposed to be a threat are no longer a threat or minimize the effect or make it hardly impact your gameplay and team?

[FearrWhalins-1432]

My guy, you’ve misinterpreted my initial post and went on an endless rant. Go back and check it again. I quoted “trivialize b4-6” first, as well as “hold off HotS solo”. That second part means P3 needs to hold off HotS solo and not 1 wave of it 20min into game? That’s why I said you’re oblivious, cuz you don’t even understand what anything people are saying to you. Then you get angry about it cuz they disagree.

You grabbed the second part and ran away with it like you found gold. Keep trying to prove that if your ally held off a single wave of HotS it justifies your false statement of trivializing b4-6. Your videos showed neither your ally held off HotS solo as P3 or that P3 made B4-6 look easy.

Step back for a second here. Let’s see it this way. You think P3 is amazing, but I disagree. I present you with evidence why I disagree, then you keep jumping on how you’ve proven P3 is amazing. Yet, you really haven’t… but based on your replies, it’s nothing but your rant with no actual evidence.

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Anyway, OP, I’m sure if you’re actually following these useless disagreements then you can make your own judgment.

All I’m saying is don’t be fooled by one person telling you how one strategy can beat the hardest content in coop with ease. To say the least, I’ve just provided some general strategy and insight that clearly shared by most others.

It’s unfathomable to me that even the best of coop players would have even made these kind of remarks with even Abathur. Yet, here we are, instead providing actual advice, we have 1 dude selling Lord of the Horde like it’s gold.

[Caffeine-2856]

@FearrWhalins-1432

Your videos showed neither your ally held off HotS solo as P3 or that P3 made B4-6 look easy.

I don’t expect the full videos will ever be posted since they likely disprove the trivializing B4-6 assertion.

[Kilometer-11340]

@FearrWhalins-1432

My guy, you’ve misinterpreted my initial post and went on an endless rant. Go back and check it again. I quoted “trivialize b4-6” first, as well as “hold off HotS solo”.

@FearrWhalins-1432

That second part means P3 needs to hold off HotS solo and not 1 wave of it 20min into game? That’s why I said you’re oblivious, cuz you don’t even understand what anything people are saying to you. Then you get angry about it cuz they disagree.

@FearrWhalins-1432

You grabbed the second part and ran away with it like you found gold. Keep trying to prove that if your ally held off a single wave of HotS it justifies your false statement of trivializing b4-6. Your videos showed neither your ally held off HotS solo as P3 or that P3 made B4-6 look easy.

First of all, I said at one point, which is mean that at a certain point in the game/map we are playing together he can solo the Heroes of the Storm without my help which is allow me to continue pursuing the main objective or whatever I am doing. So I don’t know where you got the whole pure “solo” thing from again.

And video is never about trivializing the mutators but more about demonstrating that my ally defending the Heroes of The Storm wave alone without my help at one point.

To me, it is more like you misinterpreting my words. Can’t blame the elitist who thinks everyone that plays co-op should solo the game as he did.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Step back for a second here. Let’s see it this way. You think P3 is amazing, but I disagree. I present you with evidence why I disagree, then you keep jumping on how you’ve proven P3 is amazing. Yet, you really haven’t… but based on your replies, it’s nothing but your rant with no actual evidence.

What evidence that you are talking about? The silly DPS calculation of your infested DB? Also, I already said why P3 was great back then. Not my fault you decided to ignore it for whatever reasons.

@FearrWhalins-1432

All I’m saying is don’t be fooled by one person telling you how one strategy can beat the hardest content in coop with ease. To say the least, I’ve just provided some general strategy and insight that clearly shared by most others.

And I am here telling him it is worth getting P3 Stukov if he wanted.

@FearrWhalins-1432

Yet, here we are, instead providing actual advice, we have 1 dude selling Lord of the Horde like it’s gold.

Of course, only you are worthy to provide the actual advice here. The second opinion about other prestige is a big no-no. /s.

[FearrWhalins-1432]

@Kilometer-11340

To me, it is more like you misinterpreting my words.

You’re right, I totally misinterpreted your words about trivializing B4-6:

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Post 37, initial misinterpretation apparently from me:

@Kilometer-11340

Strong enough to trivialized most of the mutators in B4~B6 just with bunker build.

Post 43, further misinterpretation of me writing from your account:

@Kilometer-11340

Except for Transmutation and Propagator, we usually don’t have a problem dealing with other mutators with P3 Stukov.

Post 45, even more of me hacking your account and putting words in your mouth:

@Kilometer-11340

all I knew that we have always had an easier time playing most B4~B6 when my ally picked P3 Stukov.

@Kilometer-11340

And I measure how good is the commander is by seeing how many mutators can be trivialized and neutralized to the point we can simply finishing the B4~B6 comfortably.

Post 48, yet again, my hackery at its finest, posting then arguing with myself:

@Kilometer-11340

I just said that P3 Stukov trivializes and neutralized most of the mutators so it gives us a comfortable/easier time when playing B4~B6.

@Kilometer-11340

I just telling the Topic Creator that P3 Stukov is strong enough to trivialize most mutators in B4~B6 with bunker build

Post 52, apparently I moved the goal post:

@Kilometer-11340

Cute. You were the one who brought up the issue when I said my P3 Stukov ally can hold the Heroes of the storm wave by himself. I am simply giving what you asked TWICE, but of course, you being a sore loser by keeping moving the goalpost instead of admitting “Oh I am sorry for doubt Stukov can hold the Heroes of The Storm on his own”.

@Kilometer-11340

Mutators that supposed to be a threat are no longer a threat or minimize the effect or make it hardly impact your gameplay and team?

And finally Post 55, circle full back cuz I’ve misinterpreted your words every post x 6:

@Kilometer-11340

To me, it is more like you misinterpreting my words. Can’t blame the elitist who thinks everyone that plays co-op should solo the game as he did.

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Seems to me you’re the one who’s too prideful to admit your advice is a terrible advice. Not only did you not provide useful insight to OP, you’ve gone on a crazy rant about how I’ve wronged you. All I’ve done is pointed out how I entirely and whole-heartedly disagree with your stance.

Each one of your post misses the entire point by, dare I say it, a Kilometer.

[Sheltriel-2963]

I read all the topic and the only thing it inspires me is to stop sc2 coop.

OP was asking for some advices for his new commander and you finished with a topic about “brutal+6 best time” he probably never going, and all that because one single world misplaced.

I understand the will to be concise and to teach to novices with the “best” advices, but right now you are just being toxic.

[Ambrascet-2530]

I really like Stukov, because there are several ways of playing him. I have P1 set for default. I usually expend with diamondback or banshee, depending on whether I’ll use factory or starport units. Cloaked banshees have the same attack range with diamondbacks and they can heal and recharge energy rapidly while burrowed. I really like using starport units. For example on Rifts to Korhal where they can approach objectives much easier than ground units. If you produce queens you don’t even need overseers, not forgetting that only archons deal increased damage vs queens. I really like the banshee-queen setup. If there’s heavier air enemy, I just add liberators.

I love zombie waves as well. They eventually clear out any base.

I also love defending with Stukov. Bunker-tank are superior. More effective if overseers are sieged up above them.

[ackmondual-1952]

Neat to hear more thoughts on usage of Queens, and Banshees!

Leveling up prestiges, it hasn’t been uncommon to get pre-lv7 Karax players, or P1 Karax, so no free healing. Banshees being able to heal themselves gives it more pts in my books, although I’m going to be trying them out anyways since I’ll be starting Stukov’s P2 at some point. I’ve healed Db’s with SCVs, but a 1-click burrow command is tops!

[SpheralRob-1219]

As a Stukov main what I do is drop the PSI emitter on the expansion area, start immediately making your 2 SCV’s and then make 2 Overlords after that. By the time the Overlords are done you can make a couple more SCV’s that way then start building your gas up ASAP. After your refineries are done make a barracks and 2 Engineering bays alongside getting more infested SCV’s. The moment the Engineering bays are done start researching Anaerobic Enhancement. By the time your infested civilians reach the expansion they’ll clear out the rocks quickly. And you don’t even need to really bother with your expansion gas since Stukov’s already OP without mechanical units. Just make sure to have an SCV following your Infested civilians so you can build your second base immediately.