Believe me when I say that even that firebat would still be bad.
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Hey wirebender are you master 1 yet? 1v1bo3 after HSC?
:sarcasm_on: Iâm sure that people who say that Firebat is a bad unit can back their view with logic otherwise then âbecause I said soâ :sarcasm_off:
âOnlyâ
ROFL
You just named 2 reasons why Hellbat is not used with bio except during hellbat push, where upgrades donât matter yet and Hellbat speed is not that important yet because of little creep spread and low amount of banelings on the map.
You just called standard macro TvZ a âniche caseâ. Sweet!
Also, pretty much every unit in the game is good only against certain few units. It is how well they mix in a deathball that truly matters.
Thatâs just plain wrong: it would last longer against zerglings and is able to soak much more banes.
Wrong: firebat fires in a line, you can fit more of them in unit of space and use stutter step micro.
Question to you: Please, list units that Hellbat ACTUALLY FIGTHS in real game. Units that attack Hellbat, that Hellbat shot back at and kills.
Hellbat role in the game is being a buffer for mech units to soak damage and that few units that it actually fights with.
Firebat on the other hand would be completely different, serving as mobile source of splash that doesnât do friendly fire that can also tank some damage.
Reason why they buffed Firebat in co-op is that it doesnât mix well with Raynorâs other units: Raynor doesnât have Ghosts and Liberators, so you need different unit composition that in ladder TvX; also he have Medics instead of Medivacs which are just worse unit than Medivac.
- It has low DPS for such a short-range unit.
- It is easily hard-countered out of existence in 2/3 match-ups.
The only units that Firebats survive longer against are anti-light specialists like Banelings, Hellions, other Hellbats, Ghosts, Phoenixes, and Adepts.
Firebats and Hellbats also break even against Broodlings.
Otherwise the Hellbat is the tougher unit because of its additional health; and it is far better at destroying light units than the Firebat
Name one unit other than the Firebat that is only useful in one specific match-up and completely useless in the other two.
Hellbats last longer against Zerglings and fry them at a much faster rate, and Firebats can only survive 1 more Baneling hit than Hellbats.
Zerglings, Zealots, Broodlings, Locusts, and Dark Templar (niche) are the simple ones.
If the Hellbats are properly supported, dropped, or manage a surround+transform then Queens, Roaches, Stalkers, Marines, Marauders, Hydralisks, Adepts, Tanks, and Ravagers can all also be destroyed by Hellbats.
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No, they buffed Firebats in co-op because they were simply too weak to be useful in that mode.
Most units and compositions in StarCraft II destroy Firebats without any trouble.
Zergling-Baneling (if it does not include Infestors, Lurkers, Aberrations, etc) is a unique exception in that regard, and there is a very low chance that the AI in co-op will roll that composition out of the numerous compositions that it can choose.
Furthermore, in co-op the player has a weaker economy than multiplayer, the AI has occasional Hybrids, and the AI starts out with fully developed bases and armies that the opponent must constantly push into. These factors force the player to be much more resource-efficient than they are in multiplayer, so weak/inefficient units like Firebats require disproportionate buffs (double-health, double-range, etc).
Excuse-me? Thors exist
The burst damage of Immortals are strong in the midgame, lategame people tend to sack Immortals for better tier units. The reason they sack Immortals is not that they are not good units, itâs because they donât scale in the super lategame in the most common matchups:
The most common Terran goes bio-MMM-Ghosts-Liberators and Immortals are not better tank than Chargelots Archons and they have to give space to things like Colossus/Tempests that demand a lot of supply and because of that Protoss have to be pretty precise on their lategame comp.
And the most common Zerg doesnât go Ultras just because Immortals are too good, they go BL (now winfestors is gone replaced by hydras) or Lurkers and the Immortals are a temporary response to it until sky-toss is on the field.
And Tempest is garbage, just a siege unit that offers little to no combat potential outside of Capital Ships engages.
So the Protoss lategame damage is garbage.
Because the shape of the attack is very clunky and the damage point is beyond outrageous, plus no one shot-ing.
The narrow line in front of the firebat was ok in BW, but because of upgrades to the pathing AI this shape will rarely hit more than 2-3 zerglings. Compare to a hellbat which hits 5-6 zerglings or more with each attack.
Meanwhile, the firebat as it stands has to lift their arms, contemplate life, tell the zerglings a dad joke, and then finally, they can attack. By that point, either a) the zerglings moved out of range or b) the zerglings all died to marines.
And finally, the hellbat with blue flame + weapon upgrades can one shot zerglings. This means that even as zerglings do a drive by of the hellbats, the hellbats only need 1 or 2 glancing blows to do spectacular damage to the zerglings.
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I tried Reapers on the first Firebat mission in the campaign once. It rendered the Firebats useless because they never got to attack.
How that disagrees with what I said?
[quote]Zerglings, Zealots, Broodlings, Locusts, and Dark Templar (niche) are the simple ones.
If the Hellbats are properly supported, dropped, or manage a surround+transform then Queens, Roaches, Stalkers, Marines, Marauders, Hydralisks, Adepts, Tanks, and Ravagers can all also be destroyed by Hellbats.[/quote]
Broodlings and Locusts are not units, they are projectiles of BL and SH. Hellbats donât fight to BL and SH, they just die from attacks of these units. Also Chargelots actuallty kill Hellbats until you have blueflame and very large number of Hellbats (if tanks are present it goes even worse for hellbats because of friendly fire).
I tried different follow ups to 3 rax push to keep the pressure and I found that Hellions supported by bio do better against toss than Hellbats.
Queens - during the Hellbat push you might force queens into the corner and you might force them to fight Hellbats in melee if Zerg playes really bad, but this is very rare occasion.
The rest of your list LOL. Just LOL. Was you bitten by Goba lately?
At best they will force there units to move away.
Banshee and Tempest comes to mind.
Tempest is an anti-Liberator specialist (considering that terran late game vs toss revolves around Liberator crutch this is justified).
Also its debatable whether Firebat will be useless in other match-ups. It could do well against chargelot-collosus based army when properly supported.
In TvT I can see them being dropped into mineral line like people used to drop Hellbats; however unlike Hellbats, Firebats would be able to catch up with running SCVs and wonât be killed so quickly by couple of Marines.
Hellbats can not kite nor split nor kill banes. They are melee range unit.
Debatable.
Firebat attack targets in line, like a Hellion. Hellbat can attack only units in melee range in arc around it.
Health advantage quickly stops being important because Hellbat armor upgrade is done in E-bay plus it have native armor and doesnât receive bonus damage from +light units.
Last but not least they take 2 slots in Medivac instead of 4
Broodlings and Locusts are both units, and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise. It is best to avoid fighting those units if you can because they are free, but if you have to then Hellbats and Hellions are decent choices.
Hellbats are specifically used against Brood Lords to protect Thors in mech play, since most of the Brood Lordâs damage comes from the Broodlingâs melee attacks. Using just a couple Hellbats to protect Thors reduces the Brood Lordâs damage per attack by 36-48, so a fully upgraded Brood Lord would end up dealing 26 damage instead of 62 or 27 damage instead of 75.
Fighting Locusts with Hellbats is not ideal, but it is still sometimes done to prevent damage to other units. Albeit, if you have the space to maneuver it should usually be better to fight in Hellion form and kite to avoid taking damage entirely.
You should always get Blue Flame if you are actually using Hellbats in your composition long-term; and no, you donât need a particularly large Hellbat count unless you are dealing with a particularly large number of Zealots. Hellbats should start winning against Zealots after you get about 2-3 of them; and they scale up much better than single-target units like Zealots.
Considering how the two units actually scale. It is ridiculous to expect Firebats to work against Zealots in cases where Firebats fail.
Firebats also suffer far more friendly-fire damage from Siege Tanks. They more or less die twice as fast:
- 2 hits, 3 hits, 6 hits for Firebats in 100%/50%/25% radii
- 3-4 hits, 6-7 hits, 11-14 hits (11 requires +3 vehicle weapons with absolutely no armor) for Hellbats in 100%/50%/25% radii.
Firebats should usually be expected to die in 2-3 friendly-fire hits. If you are very lucky and only take damage from the outermost radius, then Firebats might die in 6 hits; while Hellbats can take 3-7
Unless you are explicitly kiting, getting kited, or trying to dodge Storms or Disruptor shots without pre-splitting; that should not be the case.
You can nearly always surround the Queens in Hellion form and then transform. Queens are not fast enough to kite Hellbats even if you donât do that, but it is the most effective way to fight Queens.
No. Unlike you I actually use Hellbats regularly and support them properly.
Hellbats can in fact defeat all of the units that I mentioned.
- Sometimes pure Hellbats can do it by surrounding the units first and then transforming with Smart-Servos.
- Tank-Hellbat can handle the rest of the cases. The Siege Tanks prevent the opponent from attacking the Hellbats without taking damage; while the Hellbats force the opponent to stay away from the Tanks or risk getting slaughtered by the Hellbats themselves. It frankly doesnât matter which option the enemy chooses.
Tempests are useful in both PvT and PvZ, albeit they are underpowered at the moment.
Banshees work as harassment units to some extent in all 3 match-ups; albeit it depends on the opponentâs build.
Do you expect to fight Chargelot-Colossus without any Stalkers or any other anti-air?
No, it is not really debatable whether or not Firebats will become useless.
Firebats are easily hard-countered by Archons, Storms, Immortals, Stalkers, Disruptors, etc; and you should always expect the opponent to make at least a few of those units.
Firebats also perform much worse against Chargelots than Hellbats do. A Hellbat with Blue Flame and no upgrades whatsoever has higher DPS against Chargelots than a fully upgraded Firebat with Stimpacks.
For the most part, neither can Firebats. They both take damage if they try to fight Banelings in any way; and neither one is particularly resilient or effective against Banelings.
Firebats have roughly the same range as a Hellbat, so there is not much difference.
Thatâs because Hellbat drops were so powerful that Hellbats had to be explicitly nerfed to prevent abuse. If Firebats are more than half as strong as Hellbats you should expect them to receive the same treatment.
Hellbats are there to soak damage from BL/SH projectiles, yes. We 100% agree on this. Hellbats donât fight BL/SH though.
When I played mech last time Vikings/Banshees did but that was over year ago (when we had PDD) thus I canât agree nor disagree that Thors works against these units.
I tested this in unit tester actually back when we discussed this issue with MyOhMind. Chargelots slaughter Hellbats unitl there is relatively large number of them (10 or so), but I took into account Charge and 2-2 on Protoss side vs 0-0 on Terran side. Since then time cost of Upgrades for Toss was increased and Charge will be nerfed soon so test needs to be redone.
Not at all: Firebats will have higher damage density due to the fact that they attack in line and take less space. Hellbat that stands behind other Hellbat canât attack Zealot if Iâm not mistaken.
Irrelevant.
When playing bio in TvP you build ONE Siege Tank and thatâs it (can link to EU GML Terran twitch if you want a proof).
In TvZ its a bit more complicated, but you donât have Tanks dealing FF either because 1) during your first push with tanks there are 2-3 of them and zerg either donât fight you or you load your infantry in medivacs and retreat - or you donât have tanks with you at all; 2) during later pushes your tank number is still low: for anti ling-bane splash you have WM and tanks are there to shoot at Hydra.
Firebat will be sort of replacement to WM and Marauder.
I tested that. You should not let Chargelots attack Hellions though.
Havenât seen them in PvZ like⌠ever (during this year).
Then it just happens that both standard build in PvT and TvT shuts down any potential Banshee harass completely; thus Banshee is practically never built unless Terran is just playing fun build against weaker opponent or plays with no real intention to win.
Ant-air? I donât follow your thought here.
I expect to add Firebats to MMM army instead of WM, because of how unreliable WM is.
You can see in high level play that they donât like WM either; some players even donât build anything at all with factory after it finishes building reactor for Starport and just fly with it to give vision on potential WP path.
You can run away from Disruptor ball with stimmed bio but canât with Hellbat ROFL (you canât even with Ghost). Moving away from Storm is also an option with FB, unlike HB.
Also, are we talking about monobattle here?
Sigh.
You should play bio.
There is a micro technique called âsplittingâ. You order your units to walk in defferent direction thus splash damage from banes wonât hit them as hard as it would if they were standing in a ball that they naturally clump into.
It takes 6-7 Banelings to kill a Marauder.
Marauders are added for only reason that they can soak banes, despite them being completely useless vs lings and hydra. If there was unit that could also soak banes, but could fight lings and even do something useful vs hydra that would made Terran army much, MUCH stronger. That unit is a Firebat.
What happens in real life is that you put your Marauders forward in pre split and Marines backward, Zerg charges with ling-bane flood into you, trying to move banes into your Marines and if he miss micro some of his Banes will hit Marauders.
Huh?
I remember them firing in line, just like Hellions.
Hellbats fight at essentially melee range, like Zealots or Zerglings.
Maybe they will also need Blueflame upgrade.
But anyway anything that changes current TvT meta is good.
They can. The Hellbatâs range is 2, the Zealotâs range is 0.1. The Hellbat doesnât nearly take up 1.9 space.
Apparently you havenât watched any tournaments.
Protoss makes Stalkers, Archons, HT, and other units to deal with Vikings and other air units whenever they go Colossus. Those same units that are always present to protect Colossus from air also happen to hard-counter Firebats; so Protoss will never have any trouble killing Hellbats with a Colossus-based composition.
Widow Mines are arguably much more reliable than Firebats because they wonât be hard-countered as easily, and they arenât crap against units other than Zealots.
Ghosts have the same movement speed as stimmed Bio. If you cannot avoid Disruptor shots with Ghosts, you cannot avoid them with any other ground unit in your Bio composition.
Also, the ability to occasionally dodge Disruptor shots does not make Firebats viable when the opponent has any of the other units that I mentioned. Firebats are still crap.
I am aware of that. If you pre-split then you shouldnât have trouble splitting Hellbats; and the Hellbats are far better against Zerglings than Firebats.
Firebats take longer to kill Zerglings than Hellbats do, and they only absorb 1 more shot from Banelings than Hellbats. That isnât a particularly good track record.
The Firebats also deal far less damage to Banelings and do not slow like Marauders do, so it can be much easier to get past them.
Firebats and Hellbats are both 2 range units. The Firebats do fire in a line while Hellbats fire in an arc, but in practice there is no difference in the number of units that they both hit.
Even if there was such a difference; the Hellbatâs DPS and bursts are significantly stronger such that it is still much better at killing units than the Firebat. On top of this, Firebats have a much longer damage point, so they take a very long time to deal damage to a target. This can often prevent Firebats from shooting depending on the Terran armyâs DPS.
Co-op specific upgrades are not an indicator of a unitâs multiplayer stats. If you havenât noticed, almost all co-op units are overbuffed and receive overpowered upgrades that would never exist in multiplayer; such a Maelstrom Rounds for Siege Tanks or Multi-Lock targeting for Goliaths (which raises the Goliathâs potential DPS from a maximum of 12 or 25.3333 up to 37.3333).
The co-op specific upgrades for the Firebat and Hellbat are as follows:
Firebats:
- Get a +2 range upgrade that would not exist in multiplayer.
- Get a +100 health +2 armor upgrade that would not exist in multiplayer.
Hellbats/Hellions:
- Blue Flame adds +10 damage to both Hellions and Hellbats instead of +5 for Hellions and +10 for Hellbats. Hellbats also start with their multiplayer Blue Flame damage (18 +12 v. light), so they get a total of 40 damage against light with Blue Flame.
- +2 armor upgrade.
- In addition, Hellbats start with 100 extra health (235 instead of 135) and gain 20% extra health (282) when Swanson is leveled up.
Wrong, Ghost has lower speed
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Ghost_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Marauder_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
You can outrun Disruptor ball with Stimmed Bio but canât with Ghost.
Speed difference between bio and Ghost is the main reason why Ghost is so clunky and controlling Bio+Ghost army is so convoluted.
It takes 4 Banelings to kill Hellbat and 7 to kill a Marauder.
Judging by the fact that Firebat have 100 hp and 1 armour it would take 6 Banes per Firebat. I would expect Firebat hp buffed a little if its added though.
Okay on this I stand corrected. They can indeed.
I havenât watched all of them. I have a life. Those PvZ that I did watched saw no Tempests.
It is questionable should you build Vikings when you see Colossus or not⌠Liberator is just better and can deal ground damage that Terran so badly needs against Toss.
But it seems you again assume monobattle and that if Terran player builds Firebats it canât build Marauders and Marines and Ghosts for whatever reason.
In StarCraft it is not individual units that fight with each other but unit compositions. Units are supposed to cover each other weaknesses. As it stands now, Terran doesnât have unit that is good against Chargelot.
WM is not such unit because it tends to deal more damage to your infantry rather than to Protoss army, because Chargelots tends to uhm charge into your army faster than WM can fire. Also in TvP Protoss tends to kill you WM from distance by either Colossus/Stalker/Disruptor. Competent opponent will never walk into minefield.
Hellbats are super slow and canât kite anything.
Marauder speed: 3.15 +1.57
Hellbat speed: 3.15
Firebats die in 5 Baneling hits, and it is quite unreasonable to expect them to be buffed much from their campaign values. Those are more or less the stats that Firebats had when they were still being considered as a multiplayer unit.
Furthermore, considering that Firebats have more mobility than Hellbats with Stimpacks it is completely unreasonable to expect them to have a similar health pool or similar DPS. Both stats would have to be lower simply because of the mobility advantage.
No I am assuming mixed compositions, that is precisely why the Firebats become useless. They need to be in front to do anything useful; but they are hard-countered by just about every unit that Protoss uses other than Zealots.
That depends on your positioning and micro, but Widow Mines were never ideal against Zealots.
WM tend to perform better against other Protoss units like Archons, Adepts, Stalkers, Sentries, Phoenixes, and Oracles that have more shields compared to health, tend to clump up, and are less likely to cause friendly-fire.