they were the best. RIP.
I am not fanboying just being objective.
You are using old data to call how great GSL is. Do you even watch? Serral is not as top anymore, Reynor is playing better.
DRG and Hero who are returning players becoming on top of a group? Rogue out? Zest out? If anything GSL is none of what it used to be. Neither of them play well and someone with slightly upper edge wins. When I mean the Eu players yes I mean these two and maybe Heromarine, Showtime. No others play better but still, to me no reason to neglect everything non-GSL. What im saying is you may see more effort from MaxPax than from Zest or Trap. So in a way, some other matches are worth watching more
Do you think the best euro players can beat the best GSL players? Because everytime I watch a match, players outside of code S seem totally outclassed and lose to the simplest strats. I use Serral a lot, because when KR players went to play EU players a few years ago, only serral was able to beat them. The rest kind of just fell over.
Special, a tier 3 foreign terran from na, had been in the GSL several times. Astrea a tier 2 toss from NA qualified recently for the ro20. He could never beat serral or reynor or clem. I watched the first two groups of the latest gsl. Those games were basically complete trash. Only cheese and basicaly all of them were not able to play a game with more than 4 bases. I know it is hard to acknowledge, but your dream sugardadies from korea are not the top of the top right now.
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You know, I was actually probably a bigger Diablo 2 fan than anyone. I was a lot more addicted to that game than I ever was to StarCraft, that’s for sure.
I was a big fan. It just never crossed my mind that “devil worshipers” made the game and I was supposed to become a satan fan. I missed the memo that everyone else got… I was doing it wrong, I suppose… According to Blizzard and crew. Oh well…
I was also, obviously, a big fan of Broodwar. I really liked watching that game and I’d consider that modern chess; good substitute, at least, if “we all possessed 400 APM.”
StarCraft 2, though? Broodwar was a legendary game that had been out for ever. It made no sense to realistically expect StarCraft 2 to be better. Then, that was compounded by they had already planned on releasing two more expansions.
The game literally had it “baked in” to be worse than Broodwar: A natural bias to hold back units/ideas, so you can improve the game with additional content and maximize sales. Stringing along the goods. I hated that concept/lingering thought.
All this time, I’ve never learned to even be able to stomach watching, say T vs Z, in SC 2. The only match that made me feel like it was worthwhile to watch was Dark vs Innovation on King SeJong Station. Everything else, I actually can’t stomach.
Z vs Z? No. I’ve actually never enjoyed watching StarCraft 2, ever. At all. Just wasn’t quite for me, for w/e reason. I think in part just due to being inferior to BW, IMO, to watch. So, it’s always like “why am I watching this again.” It didn’t feel right for numerous reasons. P vs P is actually probably the only matchup I could enjoy on a level similar to BW. Everything else, worse.
Anyways, point is… their focus was on creating an esport, from the get go, yet they were focused on the game, while simultaneously failing to produce a good game. So worst of both things occurred. Trash game + worst esports format humanly possible. Understatement still, somehow… You can’t blame other games for taking over. It was gifted…
What kinda alerted me/alarmed me that something wasn’t right in this scene, to begin with was how they went from transparency to “disappearing act, no idea what you’re talking about.” Example. When I started playing, they used to show all these stats to justify why they were going to buff Terran and nerf Toss. They’d use these late game stats on ladder to explain their rationale.
This was the norm. Attempting to back your actions with statistical reasoning. Then, funny thing is… so now I’m playing P vs Z and I clearly realize that late game P vs Z is so much more in favor of Zerg than anything has ever been favored for any race in the history of the game. Yet… where are the same people who had all the stats? What happened to them? What happened to those metrics?
They haven’t said a single peep about any ladder stats since 2012 or so… Never explained why. Meanwhile… I saw third party stats that clearly indicated Zerg was winning 60% of the time in “macro games.” Late game. Far more egregious than what the 2012 versions used to justify reasons for needing to change things. Hmm…
David Kim? Doesn’t even deserve to be talked about. Not on the up and up…
Then, so they’d come out with these massive bans. Warden or w/e would ban all these people. Okay. So, you telling me none of those people were tournament players? No pros? No discussion about who might’ve they banned? Doesn’t smell right.
Then, I play against Cham and the guy was blatantly hacking so bad and then I get banned for calling it out. It was such a horrible experience that I didn’t play in another tournament for a year. Just due to that guy and the experience.
Then, I see Cham admitted to hacking in the past. Then, in 2015 or w/e… he has the audacity to join a freaking hacking clan. The most infamous hacking clan. Yet, not one time one would anyone ask him about it or give him any grief. No, too busy giving me grief. Weird, huh? What’s a scum bag gotta do to get called out for anything in SC 2.
Then you see what has come out about the company since then, and now you tell me how they’re not intimately involved in this illuminati satanic trash can business?
New RTS game that’s coming out. I didn’t look into it beyond seeing them say “you will be battling demonic forces.” Hmm… The word of the lifetime in RTS is apparently demonic/satanic. What a coincidence. How original. Wonder why it was on their mind… Wonder who they’re trying to attract/cater to.
As far as I can tell you, you don’t need a new RTS to battle demonic forces. Just turn on any SC 2 cast and talk about any of the commentators. Just turn on any “big streamer” in the game and talk to them. There’s you “battling” demonic forces.
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Exactly , glad someone else sees the same about GSL. I know GSL used to have high standards but I’d say not anymore, but some Dreamhack games were basically more worth watching
I don’t watch SC 2 for obv reasons, but the two cents I’d add would be NoRegret. GSL was dead the second NoRegret qualified. The guy doesn’t hotkey units. He refuses to get a hive. Playing against him is truly like playing against a Plat player. It’s so crazy, I know. That’s the honest to god truth/feeling. Only playing against him feels like that.
So, what that at least speaks to is the lack of DEPTH in GSL. Basically, GSL becomes easier to qualify for than NA/EU events. NoRegret would probably have a harder time qualifying for even NA.
Special is very good. He was the best non Korean Terran player to switch to SC 2. He’s always been “legit.” No shame in losing to him, Korean or non Korean.
Astrea is also very good. He’s probably the best “pro type” non Korean Toss in the world, in that he’s very technically skilled and he’s also the most unique player at that level, so you never know what he’s going to do, which makes him even more dangerous.
I’d say a lot of “which reigion is better” merely comes down to “who has the most Zerg players?” Zerg is clearly the best race in the pros, so as long as EU is Zerg dominated and Blizzard acts like “balance is kewl bro. Always has been and always will be, as long as Zerg wins every time…” then “EU is best.” Life is banned. That would be like banning Serral. Leaves a mark/dent.
Korea is “short on Zerg players,” Toss is trash, so… not that hard of a region these days probably. The region has basically become Maru and Dark, then some dudes, as far as I know.
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Blizzard designed SC2 around the wanton desires of mechanically elite snobs. Of course only a fraction of people are going to be able to play it!
There is some irony there, though. They’ve done everything they can to make it easier so there can be “white heroes.” How do we get the white guy to win? How do we get the white guy credit for this and that? I’d say, for the technical record, it’s just as correct to call me “white guy” as anything else, but not the world we live in due to psychopaths dictating math and everything else.
In Broodwar, people really don’t understand just how big the gulf was. I’ve never really been able to take SC 2 seriously due to Koreans not winning out. No one was beating A team Koreans in BW ever. It didn’t even make sense just how untouchable they were all, even in regards to just winning a game off them. No one could even do that…
This is also probably part of why people don’t want to acknowledge why SC 2 ACTUALLY fell off. It’s actually centered around white people. So, Morhaime makes the WCS changes that are absolutely god awful. Even worse than satanism… But, the thing is… Pre 2013, the best StarCraft talent was stuck playing BW. The Flashes of the world hadn’t switched yet/had time to become good.
So, this made “normal white people” have an elevated status. It turned them into legends when they otherwise wouldn’t have even been qualifying for tournaments cause a Korean, even the Cranks of the world, would have taken their spots.
So when they made the WCS changes, “the white heroes” could no longer qualify for anything. But some of these people had really big salaries. So, now the companies/sponsors aren’t happy because they’re getting no exposure. Their investments have been turned into ladder heroes at best. “Faceless Korean” is better than everyone they had invested in.
So, the sponsors leave. The players leave. The fans leave. Those were the dominoes. All because of the most premature, at best, changes ever. That’s the importance of making sense. They took an absolutely perfect system (they could argue too many spots were up for grabs) and did a 180 and pretended there would be no consequences/fall out. You can’t blame satanists who rig things for failing to remember that sometimes there are consequences for being illogical.
I don’t want to make anything into a race thing. Again, I am white… whether that hurts people to hear it or not. But sometimes things are “things.”
The most marketable person for most companies in esports is a white person. Everyone wants to find reasons to make it seem like Rotti, for instance, is creating this or that and “he did the most awesome things.” Everyone wants things to fit w/e narrative that will make them the most money. That’s capitalism for you.
Me… just being objective guy who kinda still values truth and hates treating life as WWE? Guess not so much money in that. Guess that’s rain on a “nationalist” parade.
I think the problem with gaming/life is that there’s people with a lot of dirt that are heading companies, and all they want to do is protect themselves and their stock price, so everyone who is associated with them in anyway has to agree to sell out. Getting people to pretend their employers are boy scouts and helping them sell agendas/propaganda is paramount.
What’s the cost for everyone else? You gotta play Cham and watch him give absolutely zero care in the world about hiding the fact that he is hacking. Just flaunts it as much as humanly possible. Just letting you know he can’t be touched.
Then if you were to play in a future tournament against such a player, instead of protesting by not doing so, now a caster/satanist is probably going to say you’re using someone else’s build, even if he knows you created it and he himself has stolen from you, and then he’s probably going to hate on you while knowing your opponent is a map hacker.
That’s the SC 2 reality. There’s no joke/exaggeration there. What do you think the expiration date is on an environment like that? Anyone want to guess what group Cham is probably apart of?
How many Apoptosises, casting the Pylon Show, and casting the main events does it take before people realize… the game wasn’t welcoming enough to keep many people? SC 2 is hell. A lil group of people who try to torment everyone and make everyone think they’re living in a crazy town, cause they are.
How could you not go crazy? Spend all day playing against the most blatant hackers and bigger harasser in SC 2 history, then you have to hear Rotti talking about how “that’s his boy.” That’s his favorite person. Then you’re like… isn’t that the same caster who copied my stuff then said I was parting on the Pylon Show? You know, just always doing psychopath clown stuff? Hmm… That’s who we’re supposed to worship?
It’s hell. Apparently, hell isn’t the most desirable place to live. So, when you take the people who make SC 2 hell and then just take them to another location (game)… how can that game have a sustainable future? Are these guys really this crazy?
You can’t even play a game where cheating is possible, cause this group will ensure it persists, and then you will have to watch them praise the blatant cheaters and set you up to look bad. It’s pretty fascinating.
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Dont know man, BW is even worse because the AI is much inferior, no mass production hotkey, no f2 and so on but still is huge in Korea, much more than SC2. More than apm are bad ingame mechanics, and that the BW units are much cooler. Compare Arbiter with Mothership for instance, they ended up removing all Mothership design and now is paper weight, add to this the very late patches for clearly silly stuff.
Silly mechanics that render all ur apm and strategy useless, like tactical jump, early prisms, only vision nyduses, swarm hosts, collosus the creatively dissapointing war of the worlds ripoff etc. frustrating lots of new players and even experienced ones that just went back to BW.
BW has recall and swarm but this are late game real tier 3 abilities. Now u get early prisms warp speed nightmare.
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Right so the whole Fromsoft admiting to there PC Performance issues is just an Opinion right? As someone eles kinda stated you kinda need to fact check yourself br0.
so yeah the community cant realy disprove that the game had massive PC Performance issues and what knock.
Yes but Dark is also not as unstoppable as 1-2 years ago when they played vs Serral, nor is Rogue. Overall some exhaustion is seen from this game, even in GSL it does not look like anyone cares to the same extent, but that is understandable. Although Im not fan of too cartoony graphics (Crossfire shows a nice balance between realistic and units of better visibility), it may be time to move to something new, even if that means the new game by frostgiant. Just needs to not have some silly designs as David Kim’s ‘best moments are worker harass’ (design gazillion units that wipe mineral lines)
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Huh, I thought almost everyone watched DreamHack. I place DH, HSC and the World Championship all above GSL.
Serral is much better than any Korean. He HAS flown down to Seoul and won, twice, in the GSL vs The World tournament. He’s beaten every Korean to become World Champion twice. Reynor is the only other player to ever touch him, taking 3 maps in the Bo7 grand finals of the WC. Maru was the only other player to take a single map off of him, that tournament. I repeat, a single map. Serral, Reynor and Maru are the top 3 in the world right now by far. You should check Aligulac, as it shows the ever-updating world rankings of StarCraft pros.
I do get the fact that GSL has a more consistent scene where you will see every opponent Rogue will go against should be a decent game, but looking at the rankings on Aligulac there are only 23 Koreans in the top 50. They all play well. But then you guys are also leaving out players like MaxPax, who has beaten ByuN, Solar and Cure a bunch of times recently, and is only a 17 year old Danish player. He recently overtook Zest for 2nd best protoss. He isn’t as good as Maru, Serral, Reynor, Dark or herO, sure. But he goes toe to toe with the top Koreans in GSL who always get to Group Stage 2. Serral and Reynor are BY FAR the best players in the world right now. Serral has broken almost every record and is still at the top, with Reynor on track to being the best. DreamHack is an international tournament, as in, every player in the world plays there. It is really the best determiner for who the best players are.
In the top 30 there are 18 Koreans and those would make up the main players in the GSL. That’s probably the area most people want to see good games in, but you have to get there are 12 other players you are missing out on.
Looking at the top 8 of each race i would say that there are 4/4 (Foreign/Korean) Zergs, 3/5 Terrans and 5/3 Protoss. Maybe it has to do with the timezones, but I think you should start watching DreamHack which starts on the 1st of July. These tournaments are great. And I know another argument is that a lot of the players are jet-lagged or don’t practice as much. But everyone else has to fly there, too, including players from NA, SA and the rest of Asia. They are also jet-lagged. And the prize pool and qualification for the WC are very shiny prizes, so the drive to win is high for everyone.
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- Serral flew to Korea, twice, and won GSL vs the World.
- Serral has broken almost every record and is still by far the best player.
- Reynor is the only player to have consistently been able to stand toe to toe to Serral. (Edit: maybe other than Inno, but he retired.)
- MaxPax is constantly beating ByuN, Solar and Cure, and he’s 17.
- Aligulac is a site that shows the world rankings for players, the range of players you probably watch is the top 30, with the highest ratio of Koreans to Foreigners.
- There are only 18 Koreans in the top 30. Sure, that’s the majority, but you really are missing out on the absolute highest level of play without watching the Europeans i named and players like Elazer, HeRoMaRinE, Clem, SKillous, Lambo and ShoWTimE. And non-European foreigners like Neeb, Astrea, Scarlett, SpeCial and TIME.
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I do understand that GSL is maybe a better viewing experience sometimes because when watching a top player like Rogue or Maru, you want get a good fight from their opponent. And there is a decent amount of Koreans who can play wll, but almost never win. GumiHo, Dream, Ryung and Zoun won’t look like idiots when they play against a tournament Favourite. And Europe has such a large amount of players in the top 100 that it seems like Serral or Reynor aren’t getting the best opponents for their skill. This is why I’m excited for DreamHack. We get to see the absolute best of the best vs the best of the best.
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On the game-by-game basis, some people prefer the Koreans because of their standard style. I honestly love the mid-game and timing attacks and stuff like that, it seems Europeans do this. It seems Europeans also have the mindset they should play like gods only 50% of the time, and slowly increase that percent, rather than play always really good, and slowly increase how good you are.
The teamhouses in Korea have much more of an effect on the playstyle of Koreans. They all play as practice buddies and play much more to get the upperhand with economy over a while because of lost mining time or a small worker lead. I personally think that’s quite boring, and prefer watching the Europeans (specifically, not foreigners) because they all play with a ladder-like mentality, where the objective is to win. Just win.
A good analogy is if I were to play football with one of the best players in the world. In a friendly game, they would just pass to me a few times and let me get a goal or two. If they actually cared, they would be up 6-0 and I wouldn’t have time to blink.
I think Europeans play like the latter.
Since I’m the “closet ideas guy” and Blizzard is the eternally cosplaying the devil “guy.” And Morhaime is Mr. “Storyline guy,” may his spirit live on and collaborate with me.
So, given Blizzard would probably like a little more recognition for being evil and being above the law and they bout money, they sell to Microsoft then they reveal why they stole everything from me, banned me, etc, etc for devil-like reasons – giving them more hell cred.
Then, while knowing the reaction of the non enlightened people would be to say “what’s wrong with these people. That has to hurt their stock. Let’s sell it.” So Blizzard knows this, so they buy a ton of put options and then they profit off their perceived wrong doings, when really they were doing right by the devil, thus they were right.
More hell cred, more money, and maybe they can even throw me a penny and then credit Rotti with the idea. Look at that, I even tied in Rotti. That’s how you get into the good graces with Blizzard. Being creative enough to find a way. That’s why I’m me, though. I’m amazing like that.
Idea number 2
Since I have established that players like Cham are allowed to make Nerffy look like he was trying to hide the fact he was maphacking… I say we run with that premise. Just see if we can exaggerate it a little more. Not easy to do, mind you, given they really don’t care.
But, so we have this story line of there is a psychic pro gamer. He’s like some kinda RTS super hero. Some X-Men stuff meet the X-files. The player in question refuses to ever scout ANYTHING because he has no need. Not cause he’s cheating, but cause he’s magical.
What if we turned Serral into this player? You take the best player, already, and then you have him maphack, while we pretend he’s just a prescient being from another universe? If that story wouldn’t sell and draw national attention what would? Oh yeah, just don’t forget to mention that Rotti coached Serral. I almost forgot the cardinal rule, but I finished like a pro.
GG
And maru had a broken wrist (or at least very injured). Now imagine if he was 100% healthy. That was the match I dreamed of watching. Like 2018 Maru vs Serral at both their peaks. Ever since then, Maru only can play well for one season (he usually wins at least 1 out of 3 GSL seasons every year) and then his wrist seems to catch up with him.
Sadly, I don’t think I’ll ever get to see a match like that.
The way you quoted me saying Maru only took one map off of him in ‘that tournament’ kinda messed with my brain. That was in Katowice this year.
And do you have a source for Maru having a broken wrist? As far as I remember, Bunny had a broken wrist in the Casters Civil War and ByuN’s hand was acting up in the GSL, but nothing about Maru.
Serral DID beat Maru in the 2018 GSL vs. the World as well, but I guess that was a Bo1.
Maru’s peak on Aligulac was January this year, and Serral’s was in April. Maybe those stats are inflated because they are recent but Serral is still performing at the same level as in 2018. (I mean, i guess not in the past few tournaments as he’s lost to Reynor x2, HeRoMaRinE, and MaxPax.)
Overall, we’re quite lucky to get a Bo5 lan game between two of the best players when their from different regions. And Aligulac shows 2 games on LAN between Serral and Maru: 2018 GSLvsTW, and Katowice this year.
Serral and Maru have both only played 44 and 40 official matches this year, respectively. Whereas played like MaxPax and ByuN have played 302 and 381 matches. I do agree that it would be great to see another Serral - Maru series on LAN, and we can pray for it in DH Valencia or HSC21 (But I’m not sure if Maru is playing in HSC21).
It would be great, but I don’t think he ever fully recovered from his injury. He has been rubbing his right wrist since before covid. I’m pretty sure his injury was in 2018, but it’s possible it was in 2019. But yeah, in the first few months of 2018 when Maru was a god pre injury and Serral was taking off like a rocket… that’s when I wanted to see a Bo5 or at least a Bo3 between them.
Serral has been losing a lot more and Maru doesn’t seem to care as much anymore. I think the pros finally realized the game is kinda dead. But when you are as good as Maru/Serral, you can literally not practice and still make a better living than most people.