Fix MMR range for Toss and Zerg

I’m not. I don’t think anyone’s ever argued, at any point, anything even close to this statement.

Your continued insistence on saying this, intrinsically, proves that talking with you is completely pointless.

No. Those are not the only answers.

There are a lot of bad players of StarCraft II. They get put in low leagues: Bronze, Silver, and Gold. Of these bad players, an unusually large number of them play Terran. Because there are so many such players, a mean average of the playerbases’ match making ranks will disfavour Terran because of this popularity, and not because of anything actually wrong with the race - or its players.

This is distinct from inferior players because it is not that a Terran at a given matchmaking rank is better or worse than a player of another race at that rank. This is distinct from Terran is the hardest because it is not that a given player would gain significant ranking shortly after switching races.

In fewer words, They have lower MMR on average only means that there are so many bad Terran players that the high MMR of the good ones is diluted.

Like paint, dyes, anything to do with colors: If your color is 255 red, 255 blue, but only 100 green, your final additive color will be pretty purplish, instead of white. If you mix red and yellow paints, you get some flavour of orange, pretty much regardless of the ratios you try, because you can’t get brown if you don’t also put in some blue or black.

LOL no.
This statement alone probably is the proof that you never played terran at all or you never reached anything above gold with terran.
I am always using support unit for all 3 match ups: siege tanks/vikings/ghosts/liberators. Sometimes i use widow mines instead of tanks for TvZ but tanks are better in my opinion.

What do you mean by that ? If you fail the game is over - ghosts will not let terran win game from unwinnable position. Their role is to eliminate/disable key targets so terran can properly engage.

I reached 4k within 2 months. If you can macro good enough you can basically get gm with any half decent unit comp. Heromarine for example got gm with marines only. And yes…even in my masters 2 i play vs and sometimes lose vs people basically playing mmm up to a point where they build like 3 ghosts or something.

And if you get personal, i can get personal too. Its pretty clear that you dont play the game at a decent level at all. You lack basic understanding of any race (-> pointing to the extractors trick topic)

The actual hard part of terran is not the unit composition. Its the required micro. mmm can deal with any kind of tier of units. With any units…it just depends on how well you can micro.

1 Like

If you have master mechanics then you can get 4k within 2 months with any race, but is your terran MMR lowest of all 3 races ?

This argument is completely wrong because Heromarine is pro gamer and he can get gm with any unit composition. BeastyQT got gm with sentries only. Can you imagine that ? Sentries aren’t even fighting units.

Again if you have mechanics superior to your opponent, race does not matter because you will beat your opponent convincingly.

Ok you’re 4.5k with protoss (checked your profile on sc2pulse). So it shouldn’t be hard for you to get 4k with offrace.

Yes thats true. But the bottomline Argument of yours is still wrong. MMM is pretty much still the Go to composition and its rather about the difficulty of Micro and Not the 1,2 or 3 extra Units you rather build to complete the Army composition. Its about Not Standing in storms or presplitting/Splitting your Army and keep producing your t1 Units. Because you gotta Need a looooooot of Them. Also its about constantly being the Aggressor. Dropping, denying Creep etc etc.

MMM is the “core” of the terran army. As long as your opponent does not have enough AOE units - you can stim + a-move. Eventually if zerg/protoss has too many banes/ultra/HTs/Collossi you do need support units no matter how good your control is.

That’s what i meant. Your argument that “playing terran in plat and above with MMM alone” seemed completely invalid.

But its not.

Exactly. THE OTHER races get higher advanced tech units to counter YOUR basic mmm composition. Therefore YOU have to get some other units.

Its simple as that. Thats why dark plays ling bane into early ultra because he needs something to effectively deal with t basic units. Toss needs ht/disruptor/colossi to deal with basic t units. But it pretty much works until 10 or 11 minutes in the game. Thats why i said obviously you still pretty much can win with just mmm. Not a big deal.

In short the OTHER races tech up. The best day in terran life would be an enemy that doesnt tech up.
I get your point tho, but its still pretty much false. MMM is pretty well rounded and good and can beat any army composition and tech stage from both races if you macro and micro well enough. In other words: there are no exceptionally good hardcounters that completly invalidates the playstyle. It just makes it harder, but it doesnt invalidate them. For example rather than teching up you could just improve your micro and dodge storms (meaning you have to split or presplit or only move with your army in chunks) and disruptors. Thats why storm is so disliked in general vs zerg or terran. Pros dont ever get the damage in with storm since their opponents became so good at splitting. Its whats you will see exactly in high masters too. They will just dodge your storms, so you dont get your dmg in, so you lose to plain mmm.

For example hydras will get shred if enough carriers are out. However, marines alone can deal with carriers perfectly fine (obviously much better with ghosts). Meaning a zerg would need to tech up if he sees carriers. A terran could still pretty much do it with marines alone.

The other thing about terran is they can play perfectly fine the same style against any race and there is not as much strategically thinking when it comes to which unit you should be building. Again: the difficulty of terran is the mechanics (dropping, micro and the rather difficult macro in terms of 3 key production buildings + you effectively need to build nearly the same amount of units as zerg (not exactly but you get the notion), NOT that you need to build some special units.

Lastly…plat…dude. Obviously you can in plat like you want. Plat is still really really low (low plat is the average player skill). I would agree if you said d2 and above but unit complexity was never the difficult thing about terran sc2. Didnt you hear a single gsl cast where tasteless complains about the plainness of terran unit composition and how for example protoss has a sophisticated army composition?

Didnt you ever hear the joke: A marine walks into the bar, there was no counter?
MMM can beat ANYTHING. Especially marine could deal well against like every unit imaginable since its fast, costs nothing, has a huge amount of dps meaning if you have the mechanics you can make it work against anything…hence the joke. Obviously its overexaggerated but there is a truth to this.

Sentry acting like he doesn’t 4 gate blink stalker every game. LMAO.

1 Like

I did that maybe twice. I rarely actually Play. I Always did dt expand but since all terrans are doing raven pushes anyway (lol No they arent Dead they are still Strong and viable Look at hsc) i switched to Standard Charge colossi. Maybe i will Play for real in near Future to collect my free GM badge but idk.

Then you will learn that it is the last M that allows MMM to beat mass blink stalkers.

1 Like

No. At least, not for Zerg. Banes are literally hatch-tech, and bane speed is lair tech, which generally comes at or a little after stim depending on the build. Strictly speaking, you don’t need to rush anything as Zerg against MMM, since ling-bane destroys MMM without any support necessary. Mines and tanks both are specifically needed because otherwise bio gets completely overwhelmed by Ling-Bane otherwise. It is, frankly, only when there is sufficient splash damage that Zerg players can’t overwhelm them that they need to get additional tech, and often still rely on Ling-Bane anyway.

I’ve had this conversation before, but Terran works very different from Protoss, who’s ground units are very specific but all of which synergize extremely well with each other.

This is NOT the case for Terran, who’s mech units in particular don’t synergise particularly well with bio for various reasons, though the primary two are friendly fire splash damage, and separate upgrades, but also tangentially, different playstyles. Terran tech is typically very generalised as a result, which is why they split into the two “core” compositions of “bio” and “mech”.

That doesn’t mean you don’t tech up though, as you’re often supplementing your army with widow mines/tanks, vikings, liberators, and of course ghosts.

Bio typically beats unupgraded Protoss ground, its true. Then charge and blink will actually beat stimmed bio without medivac support (and bio without stim, with medivac support), and chargelots in particular still remain very strong against bio - they’re the specific reason that bio goes into mines, and frankly almost never use tanks against protoss (as well as immortals and disruptors).

That said that’s generally because of the high health pool that chargelots have and their ability to gap-close easily. Obviously there are quite a few situations in which bio beats Chargelots as well, particularly when dealing with choke-points.

I mean, they do, it’s just not as common. That said, Storm is definitely not as strong as disruptors are, but they’re still a powerful and commonly used tool in TvP even at a pro-level.

Most of the strategy comes with builds, and frankly how tight a build actually is arguably matters most in TvX (with one or two BO exceptions such as Rogue’s Proxy hatch vs Creator in GSL).

What units you produce doesn’t change as far as core units go; but then again they don’t really change for protoss or Zerg either as it’s generally racially dependent. For Terran, it depends more on what your opponent’s composition is based around and what you’re trying to counter. Opponent is heavy stalkers or roaches/Hydras? You want tanks. Opponent is more Zealots or LingBane? You want Mines. Opponent is going into colossus? you want vikings etc. To some extent you can preempt this; particularly with Zerg as Tanks are okay against LingBane early on, and mines can be okay vs low numbers of roaches or hydras, but as those numbers start building you absolutely need to make sure you’re supplementing correctly.

You can argue that about any composition though; frankly for most people it comes down to more stuff beats less stuff, regardless of mechanics, as long as your macro is good, then you can make anything work. It’s why series like “Beating Grandmasters with stupid stuff” exists. It’s why challenges like “ghosts only” exist. Because, frankly if you’re good enough, anything can work against anything else. It’s really only when you start getting to the top echelons that that saying doesn’t hold true anymore.

2 Likes

And these are explanations for why Terran players might be inferior players… It’s the same thing. You just want to get offended.

What you don’t have a single measure for what that even means. HOW are they more casual? They aren’t newer and they don’t play less games, but the games they play must be “more casual!”

What does that mean? Don’t know! Just trust me, bro!

Charge Zealots with your far more accessible upgrades and Banelings kill bio in a straight up fight. Terran needs mines to kill both of those things.

Yesnt. Its about Creep. On Creep terran loses. Off Creep zerg loses. Terran tries to deny Creep spreading. If successful, there is no Need for a really advanced Army.

Simply stating that its because MMM isnt working at Plat and above is very oversimplistic and wrong because you Need to do Like 1000 Times more than before…this can be Said about all races.

We rarely See it tho. Vs zerg high temps are rushed because of archons and storm only gets researched later on vs Mass banes. High temps only vs terran is pretty much doomed because of Ghosts and splits. It is much much much much worse and could instantly lose you the Game…looking at you, Hero…

Exactly
That might be the Most important Part. Its about being able to actually execute a valid build Order properly. In Most cases its Not about the unit composition at Hand…Like 90% or more of the losses is due to the inability to follow a BO properly.

Yesnt. But its the extreme with terran Marines. Since it basically counters Most of its counters by Micro. Banelings ? Presplitting/Splitting. Storm disruptors? Also Splitting. Moving in chunks. In Short its weak against Splash but even that weakness is managable. And Marine only is Not a unit composition. Its pretty much common knowledge that the Marine IS the very best single unit since its ranged, No gas, Beats every Air unit, high dps and high mobility. This is Most likely the reason why terrans are tryharding and Not leaving the Game until its very pretty much over. A medivac and a dream can Turn around so many Games, but obviously you Need incredible mechanics to pull that Off.

Which Leads to the conclusion before that the hard Part about terran is Not the unit composition or that MMM doesnt Work Plat or Higher. Its about the mechanics needed because you can do everything with nearly MMM alone…Well at least the pros can do it meaning YOU have to do it aswell…this is the downside of terran. Lol.

Not terran Players. Its about people who are new/unskilled and thus Bad at the Game are playing terran…you know silver and bronze people.

You mean Like you Need mmmm? :smiley: or you Need mmm (Marines medivacs mines) such complicated Army much wow.

Nope. Again: Off Creep No, on Creep yes. We have Seen Like a LOT of terran 2 base Parade pushes that Beat the hell Out of reynor in Gsl. Its a 2 base 5 rax all in with 4 rax with addons and 1 Rax without If memory serves me right. The scary Part about that build is the sheer number of Bio Units and the complicated Part about the build is about the mechanics needed for the Bio Part and Not that you have your occasionally siege Tank sitting some space away who will defend your Bio If ling Bane comes too Close.

And you Need mines to Deal with chargelots ? No. But they Help. Protoss is Not supposed to be able to overwhelm a terran with Gateway alone. If you lose it it means you messed Up. You can Play Gateway heavy to some extend but the sheer Mass of Units will eventually mean to get Splash for protoss. Protoss needs Splash vs Other 2 races…Not the Other way round(but ofc Splash is nice to have). Protoss is the Race with advanced Units but they are costing a Ton meaning you dont have as many Units.

Again: its very oversimplistic to state its about MMM alone Not working anymore above gold. Its Not that the unit composition of terran is complicated or High Tech. Its about the mechanical requirement of Bio thats hard plus obviously pulling Off an actually build Order.

I cant believe i Need to write Paragraphs because of the very oversimplistic View of:

Like thats the Number 1 reason of terrans Not progressing past gold. Lol.

Number 1 reason for each and every Player is because they cant macro at all. Below Masters you are barely able to macro properly. Only then it gets a Bit better but its still horrible. Why ? Because macro is pretty darn hard.

You could say abs sentence with Like any possible unit composition. The reason why noob protoss dont advance past gold is because zealot Stalker colossus is Not working in Plat and above because of Vikings. The reason why zerg noobs dont advance past gold is Ling Bane is Not working in Higher leagues.

This is so oversimplified. Obviously MMM is still a very Strong Staple, doesnt Matter the League. Its a core unit composition. Ofc you have to refine your Army but its pretty much a non provable strawman that t Players only do MMM below Plat and they dont advance only because of that. Jesus Christ people.

Anectodical: i Managed to Change the Playstyle of a d2/d3 t friend of Mine from Bio to mech vs zerg (and hopefully to battlemech). The reason He himself gave was easy: He doesnt have the apm to pull that Off. The build Order, the unit composition and the goal of Bio is pretty easy…but its mechically demanding to pull it Off. So He rather Turns the Match upside down and now Hes a Turtle terran and zergs Need to Attack into him. He simply needs to defend until He gets a big enough of an Army to a move and win.

I never said it was. My point was more leaning towards early game and early mid-game timings when the marine generally is the only thing you’re making (IE 3 rax or blink timings that hit before stim).

Except that really doesn’t fly since we’re back to pre-EMP buff days now, in which storm was commonly used back then. I will say skill obviously does come into play somewhat, but you get the point.

HerO’s one of those extremely inconsistent players who’s amazing - particularly when he’s figured out some new off-meta thing - and then drops off hard, only to come back again. He’s always been like that. At times the best, and then at times arguably the worst.

I mean, I’ve already sorta illustrated that composition does matter to some extent; perhaps not as much, but it definitely matters.

Again, not MMM alone, but MMM as core, sure.

He is, apparently, incapable of making that distinction even when I and several others specifically pointed it out to him multiple times.

I mean, again, you do that with every composition in the game. LingBane is the core, Roaches/Hydras and then later lurkers are generally added on. Alternatively, mutas are added on as a harassment, or corruptors for AA. Or ultras as a frontline.

Protoss is a little different since its core generally revolves around the high tech units it has; Colossus Stalker, or Chargelot Archon, for example. Gateway units are the supporting units while the higher tier ones are the core. But they still have a core, and they still tech up with those core units.

1 Like

No, it’s not the same.
A Terran of a given rank range is not superior or inferior to other players of that rank range. They are of roughly equal skills, game understanding, etc., that’s why they’re in the same rank: The game’s imbalances* do not matter at these ranks.

The problem to assess is simple:

You assert the following, strongest evidence included in quote:

The counterargument you are supposed to reply to is very simple: That those are not the only two reasons.

The evidence of the former being that when you look at the population in various ranks, there’s a hugely disproportionate number of Bronze-to-Gold Terrans compared to the other races. The evidence of that not being an actual problem is that the average rank of the Bronze-to-Gold populations are equal, therefore it’s not that Terrans universally have lower ranks.

The correct debate response would be to demonstrate why these listed reasons are weak or why your reasons are strong.

* If they even exist outside of the actual top sub-percent of players, which i think isn’t the case but it’s not relevant to my argument so have a footnote.

They have lower MMR! We’ve LITERALLY gone over this EXACT BULLET multiple times before. I can just quote Miro, who oh so conveniently already quoted it themself recently so I don’t even have to go hunting.

They are casual-or-bad. That’s what being in Bronze means.

No, the people arguing against you want you to understand how and that you are being stupid; but that clearly won’t happen.

I hope you enjoy whatever pleasure it is you acquire from being so many degrees distant from adept that you can’t understand after having things explained in different language ten times over two months in four hundred posts, or from intentionally deciding to be a complete asshole for this extended period of time by simply pretending to not understand.

You have ruined multiple hours of my life, and at this point, it is clear that it is never going to be worthwhile to engage with you, ever.

2 Likes

Yeah, I know you have. The only way to explain it is through circular logic… We’ve been over this.

Why is Terran players’ MMR average lower? They’re bad.
How do you know they’re bad? They’re MMR is lower.

That’s the definition of circular logic.

lol

And my post right after that:

Indeed, if you incorrectly represent things, you come to the belief that the logic is circular.

You asked me two questions and I answered them. Choosing that my answers to those two questions are themselves an argument is entirely on you.

Do you think I’m - or anyone else reading this thread is - stupid? Or that, because you can mangle words, you have proven or disproven something?

No. Not dissimilar to “Anyone can sit on a throne”, all this actually demonstrates is that “you [are] an arse”.

The reason why you observe “The mean average MMR is low for Terrans” is very simple - that there are a lot of “bad Terrans who have low MMR”.

When you then ask “what metric are you using to say they’re bad”; and I say “their MMR”; that doesn’t… mean anything. The question to ask is why are there so many bad Terrans.

To which, of course, we note that Terran is the race whose campaign most looks like its ladder counterpart; that Terran is the most intuitive race since it’s designed ‘typically’ for an RTS; that Terran’s units being all ranged, Terran’s heavy defensive focus ie. Bunker, Siege Tank, Planetary Fortress; etc, increase its appeal to lower skill players.

1 Like

Yes. Yes, I do lol…

Can I at least get you to agree to one thing? IF all things were even, would you not see roughly the same distribution across all leagues?

Like, if this was WC2 and the two (3) races played exactly the same, would you not see roughly 38% up and down the leagues?