Fix MMR range for Toss and Zerg

Yes, there were. This did, in fact, happen. I posted about this. You even responded to some of it. One such response was the single word anecdotal; which I then defended as still being logical - that an anecdote is not inherently fallacious; if memory serves.

This is also mildly hypocritical: You have given a singular explanation with a single piece of good evidence, and basically ignored everyone’s content about why the explanation isn’t sound or why the evidence doesn’t support it as strongly as you think it does.

Yes, and if the original hypothesis to which the statement was actually a response had been true, it would not have worked out.

That’s the entire point. If, as was asserted way up in the head of the thread back when I was agreeing with you, the average MMR of players was actually lower for Terran players, we would be able to observe that effect when we look at large subdivisions of the population.

It is directly because that effect vanishes when you subdivide the data into its parts that is what demonstrates that the main argument for the hypothesis does not hold.

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What? There’d be no other way to show the difference other than distribution…

There’s plenty of reasons. Reasons you chose, in fact, then immediately switched your brain off once the Evidence pointed you in the opposite direction lol.

3 pieces of good evidence.

You still would, if you didn’t subdivide the populations BY MMR (you still see differences in MMR, just smaller, which is a completely obvious change to see).

No body does this, lol. Find one study that stratifies data like this and then uses them to apply individual causes to an entire population.

You guys love to stroke each other about how you found this one piece of evidence while literally all you’re doing is splitting people by a metric then showing that, WOW! They’re almost the same by that metric! Shocking!

Yeah. Seems Like you still dont understand the Point.

If there was a factual difference between zerg and terran you would still See a difference when you compare those in bottom 50% or top50%…you know ? Like we See it when we Look at height difference between men and women.

What you dont understand is that the distribution of the races in noob area is similiar, there are Just more terrans. What i mean by that is its Not Like its 60% terrans in Bronze 40% in silver and 25% in gold. Or the opposite for zerg Like 15% Bronze 30% silver and 35% gold or Something Like that. You know ? Like a clear Trend that they Just cant advance and therefore dragging down the avg mmr down for bottom 50% and zerg clearly outperforming terran. We dont See that.

What we See is that they are pretty much equally distributed but obviously the Player Count for terran is much Higher.

Its Always good to say that there are plenty of reasons and then stating none. I would actually only recall 1 reason and its the Higher seniority. But thats a wonky Statement because only because you KNOW StarCraft for 3,4,9 or 10 years it doesnt mean you get better.

And in Terms of highly experienced Players terran still Leads every high League but grandmasters. So its pretty much seniority is…fullfilled?

And you still dont get that we actually dont say that ALL terrans are Like that.

But yeah i See. Applying “terran is Harder in General” is completly valid to Claim across the WHOLE Population. Wow…good Job Bourne…

Also again: you act state that the only possibile explanation for the mmr graph is that terran is Harder. Which is Not true. There are dozens of Other possibilities. YOU need to PROVE your Claim. You need to Look Out for evidence and explanations. So far you have given us nothing.

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I did this, I linked you to me doing this, embedded the quote of me explaining it, and explained it another unique time.

This is literally what Simpson’s Paradox was about in the first place: When you look at the whole of the data it says one thing but if you look at the subset it says different things; and the entire point here and in the wikipedia article is that it is that different thing was the actual reality that was reflected by the suspicious data observed initially.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_Paradox

Simpson’s paradox is a phenomenon in probability and statistics in which a trend appears in several groups of data but disappears or reverses when the groups are combined.

Read and understand the article. This is the first sentence in the damn thing. Do you see this language it uses?

Did you see the language I’ve been using explaining how when a trend line disappears or emerges; and how that reflects truth value of that trend?

Get off the horse.

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Genuinely, I could not find them, my apologies. I will look again.

No, the entire point is that if your hypothesis was true - that is, that across all skill levels, a Terran with X MMR is of a higher skill level than a Protoss or Zerg of X MMR - we would see a significant number of Terrans with reduced MMR no matter where we looked, such that the average would be decreased.

If we divide the population into six groups - Terran, Protoss, and Zerg; with less than or greater than some arbitrarily chosen MMR - then, if skill distribution is remotely even (which it isn’t), we would be able to see this.

The simple fact that we don’t is evidence that the suspicious thing that the data say is not that Terran hard race, it more strongly suggests Players who are bad favor picking Terran.

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At this point I’m beginning to think he’s either being deliberately obtuse either to get you to capitulate on the point through sheer stubbornness, or because he’s trolling everyone. Alternatively - and I’m more inclined to believe this one - he’s simply completely incapable of comprehending anything that might show he’s wrong, and actively shuts out any and all information to his own opinion.

He’s looking for an echo chamber, nothing more. It’s been 400 posts at this point. Just let this stupidity die with him.

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is master and grandmaster that much higher?

I thought they were bias to air and partial of ground

Buddy you have no idea what you’re even talking about please stop , you and eliwan are obviously the same person. you’re not even contributing anything except ranting.

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Aaah, the old addage of “Nobody would disagree with me, therefore they’re the same person!”

I have been told I’m at least four or five different people at this point. Its hillarious, and frankly just makes you look rather sad.

I have been using this account for more than 10 years at this point. The only alternate account I have is under the same name, a relic transfered from the SEA server before it shut down.

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Hmm.

I’m tempted to not post, since me posting might feed the idea in your brain; but also not posting would lead you to say see look i called it out and it stopped; so I have no winning move.

Therefore, instead, I will point out that Miro and I have disagreed multiple times in the past, and that we likely have entirely different social circles and in my case it’s not even hard to verify for me since I use two handles for almost everywhere.

But also, this statement is more true when applied to your behavior. You’ve opened this thread with an assertion that makes no sense and that is not backed up by anything besides “I said so”; you assert that the game is imbalanced and that both Protoss and Zerg can win with A-move but Terran can’t; instead of engaging in debate you call two people “braindead” and “low IQ”, finally follow this with a reasonable point, then accuse someone of not having a point and completely fail to read someone’s post, then go right to accusing people of goalposting without that ever having happened.

In contrast, I’ve put plenty of logical arguments, which is far from ranting; though I’ll happily submit I’ve ended up saying the same thing multiple times - this is because it was not getting read and contained the relevant answer.

While Miro has been quite helpful in elaborating on ambiguous points in the thread as well as having a very level head that looks at what’s in front and actually internalizes and thinks about it; hence the earlier comment they made about their takeaway from this thread.

Also, we write completely differently.

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There’s still a difference, it’s just smaller, because your sub-stratified them the metric we’re measuring…

And what? If you stop responding I’ve threatening to beat you to death? lol

You could always just, you know, stop engaging… Not my fault you guys keep losing.

Yes… So? You’re stating that there are other factors we could stratify them by. A Multi-varied analysis. We’ve already done so based on the 3 variables we had. There’s hundreds of other variables we don’t. That’s not the same as stratifying by the variable you’re looking to measure and drawing conclusions from that.

Read:
The entire data showed total of 4 out of 85 departments to be significantly biased against women, while 6 to be significantly biased against men (not all present in the ‘six largest departments’ table above). Notably, the numbers of biased departments were not the basis for the conclusion, but rather it was the gender admissions pooled across all departments, while weighing by each department’s rejection rate across all of its applicants.

They are, in this case, stratifying based upon the department. Not stratifying based on performance.

The fact that you think this way is the thing that prompts me to continue replying.

Because you think this, but it is actually, to use your own words, a delusion.

No.

While, yes, the difference is there and, yes, dividing the population by the data we’re also evaluating is weird and likely to reduce the visibility; if the difference was hugely important then it would not nearly vanish when divided.

The fact that it turns from a valley to a pothole is not because we’re looking at the same thing that we’re splitting by, it’s because the thing you’re talking about isn’t very real. (It is somewhat real, obviously. The data indicate to us quite suspicious things.)

Nobody’s saying it is the same.

Consider that the whole thing with the admissions data kerfuffle started because of “the entire data” saying one thing, whereas when you subdivided the data it says something completely different.

The fact that, in the textbook example, we have the luxury of dividing the groups by a second actual metric, while here we’re dividing by the metric we’re investigating, does not diminish the importance of how the act of dividing the data reveals something about the whole data set that means that considering the whole of the data has an inherent flaw.

In the case of the department admissions, looking at the overall data says that males’re almost a third more likely to be accepted; but most department’s data says you’re more likely to be accepted if you’re female.

In the case of here, looking at the overall data says that Terran has lower average MMR and that there’s a low number of high rank Terrans compared to its population; but their MMR doesn’t lead or lag significantly if you look at just the top or bottom halves.

What that says is that by only dividing our groups to control for the absolutely phenomenal number of low ranked Terran players, the problematic observation we make from the overall data nearly vanishes.

Do you see how that, in turn, is the prompt leading to the other arguments - about Terran’s familiarity, approachability, new-player friendliness, that learning the game also implies playing other races, about relative match up frequency - as suggestions for why that’s the case, because nobody thinks that it’s that Terrans are comparatively worse, but there must be some underlying reason that the facts are what they are?

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WHAT???!! Dividing by the variable you’re measuring is totally different from using a multi-varied analysis. I have been the one dividing by different variables (play activity level and player veterancy). You guys just decided to stratify by the variable we’re studying. That’s literally been the entire argument. WTH?

You haven’t come up with a single piece of evidence. The fact that best Sentry could do after literal years was to stratify the data we already had and then apply an individual attribute to an entire population (overgeneralization fallacy), should really serve to show you just how weak your arguments are.

This is what I’ve been telling you to prove. Find a single study where academics divided by the variable they’re studying and used it to draw conclusions.

Pay attention to the message you quoted.

Yes. It is very different. Nobody is arguing that it isn’t.

What is being argued it does not mean that it is somehow incorrect to draw conclusions from that.

I’m not a statistician. I don’t read research papers about this. I just have an upbringing entrenched in mathematics.

I also see no reason that this needs to be proved. This isn’t “I don’t want to do the leg work” (I don’t, let’s be clear), this is “I don’t see why the proof of that is relevant” or even “That that needs proving.”

You can have a data set and draw logical conclusions by looking at part of that set. That seems extremely self-evident.
Dividing the data that you possess by any its keys is a logical extension of that.

But, are we actually trying to investigate the MMR of the various players? No, we’re using it as a proxy because we can’t actually evaluate their skill level outside of this.

Because we don’t have the ability to actually look at a player’s skill level, we’re using their MMR instead which should have a strong enough link that it’s a synonym.

That would be an annoying argument for me to make, right?

Find one where they don’t control for massive population disparities when using an average.

Actually, mulling this over a minute, find one where they draw conclusions based on only a mean average about a population.

Doesn’t that sound stupid? An obvious overgeneralization.

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How is that overgeneralization fallacy?

You are the only one who jumps to conclusions: AVG mmr is less because of 40%-50% terrans in Low League → terran is Harder.

This is stupid. And an overgeneralization.

And No…it is Not my strongest Argument. My strongest Argument would be that we cant conclude those definitive Statements at all based on the Data because this is in No way any Kind of controlled Environment. The Race distribution is Not equally distributed at all meaning we KNOW that there is a bias which Leads to the Race Selection. Nearly everyone in sc Community would say its because of those Things we mentioned 1000 Times (Design, familiarity, Tutorial campaign etc etc etc doesnt really Matter what it is exactly but we know bias is there) leaving us Not only an unequally distribution but also an unequal Starting Point. To now state that we STILL Need to See Equal Outcome Despite Not having Equal income is insane.

Exactly this.

Its much much much smaller. We have to Note that its only 1 Data Point in a dying Game…
If it was only because i sub stratified it would be still much bigger. For example If i use it for First 50% of Population i get half of the total deviation. I actually checked it too when i did the calculation. That the difference is that small is Not because of me dividing it into 2 groups. If there was a factual difference Like for example difference in height between men and women, the difference in height would be still extremely visible.

Also you claimed that it would be better for a terran in Low League to Switch and instantly get some mmr. This is pretty much debunked by that because even p or z Players (who suck and therefore are in bottom 50%) have nearly exactly the Same mmr on AVG. Meaning Switching does exactly nothing.

I actually gave you an example why dividing into 2 groups can come in Handy. I think you still didnt get the example and yes, it might Not be the best example but looking only at 100% of the Population could even lead to an assumption that a mere skin could be perceived to be Harder. This is Just an example to Show you how insane your Point of View is. Meaning obviously we shouldnt Just Look at 1 direction and try to explain the world with it. This is Not how it works.

Not sure if my game knowledge allows me to participate in this thread but from my own experience i would say this:

Mech is not difficult to play - it is low- apm turtle garbage that requires sitting behind turrets, PFs, sensor tower and survive to late game 3-3-3 unbeatable army. Much like skytoss

Bio however in my opinion is the hardest style to play in the entire SC2 - if you don’t have enough APM/multitasking you will fail regardless of race/style your opponent plays. Macro alone in this case requires lots of attention because you have to produce from 4 different facilities at once WHILE microing your army.

My 3 cents.

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We are evaluating performance. MMR isn’t a proxy for skill, but a proxy for performance. That’s your issue.

Literally every sociological study… Whether it’s the gender pay gap or studies of income disparities among races what have you, all studies start with a single variable averaged out by the population. Then you remove other variables (which I have done and you have not).