no, YOU cant control an army with ravens and ghosts in it, i probably can.
Say that for pro gamer they show was all real if you want
You have point. The answer isnt as simpe as play as X progamer. And you can learn to defend against strategy Y. However, I am taking a stand point that I am playing someone in the same league as me making similar mistakes. All things being equal you should win 50% of the games more of less. I belive most people would say 55/45… And if you are doing better than it may be time to rank up. until you are with in that threshold.
My issue i that there is no way that toss players are so much better that I am only 10% of my games. I believe there is an inherent problem in the match up.
I feel like I should be playing D1 maybe even M3 Zerg and terran players. My win rate in TvZ is nearly 70% and my winrate in TvT is nearly 60%. It may be less now because I try silly things for fun. It is a game after all.
PvT there is not a startegy that consistently works. or something that can consistenly get you winrate within 55/45. It all points towards the approach terran has to take in the match up. You cannot attack toss head on. You have to hit and run. All the while toss has better eco…
Zerg having a bettr eco is one thing. There units are not as efficient.
Toss having a better eco is something else becuse their units are effiecient and they can re max a lot faster…
Yes its the design but the design is not neccesarily right. This is all the way up to pro level. the longer the game goes on the more likely terran will lose.
2 Likes
You are right. Terran is not a Tutorial race.
Terran is first race presented in the tutorial, and therefore take first impression.
People tend to like what is already familiar to them. Different reasons mentioned in first post may explain Terran’s decreasing majority across leagues.
raven, whosbad
I do not think micro is first or most important thing new players learn, and I believe it is not necessary to do it, a-move is enough. (it’s actually 2nd thing game tries to teach you, just after move).
I do not think new players already know and try to follow builds, that include units they are usually not fully familiar with and do not know what they are doing. Even if they do, it is still easier to just spam larger army than opponent’s. I am not saying that Terran is overall hardest or easiest race to play, but it has easiest entry mechanics, as more explained in the first post.
Specialist units are not popular for new players, because they require attention and understanding of skills. I haven’t touched High Templars, Vipers and Ghosts for long time.
1 Like
i dont either but terran units are so so so much worse if not microed properly compared to toss and zerg.
terran is balanced around micro, if you have bad micro you cant play terran(bio at least)
What a waste of time…
1 Like
The problem is a move enough till the lategame where 50 procent army was heavy gas units compare to 150 supply marine maradure was p side always have more gas cost army and that army must handle just mineral type
1 Like
Dude go play protoss if they so broken get too grand master rank 1 by only cheesee then
It definitely would be nice, if people made similar mistakes to ours.
But there are many different styles across all the leagues.
Imagine a Protoss player, who plays only cannon rush. His style greatly decreases amount of mistakes he can make. Positioning do not matter for him. Scout do not matter for him. Macro almost do not matter for him, he do not need to learn Nexus hotkey. Even if you are overall better player than him, you do not have a chance to shine. It’s not okay. I do not know a solution different than learning reactions to most common styles.
I… I don’t know. 10% win ratio qualifies to question “Is it imba or do I suck?”. Your win ratio vs others suggest you do not suck. Do you know where I can find more global PvT statistics without focus on GM?
You are the first person who adressed to me the PvT match up in such a clear way. Have you tried to find out what goes wrong while you are playing vs Protoss? If yes, can you share your findings?
1 Like
All the statistics focus on GM/Pro level. Which in a way in redundant because most GMs are pro players or was pro players at one point in time. yes there are exceptions…Even some M1 players are border line pro players and could compete in some pro tournamens. I am unsure why we do not include them. They are techincally in the top 1% of players or so…
Is it imba or do I suck. Or am I doing everything correct from a technical stand poinit but, my approach and playstyle in PvT completely wrong… Maybe I should focus on mechanics as well instead of only looking at the technical things in the game. IE never becoming supply block after the first 30secs of the game…
For example, from a technical point of view my build order can be 100% fine. from a mechanical point of view yes it was correct but those hellions were 10 secs late so you lost. Even though its the first 3 mins in the game… just sayinig.
Based on the winrate you could say my play style approach… thought process in PvT is horrible.
From a game point of view the question would be how can you win 70% of one match up and 10% of another. What is tragically going wrong. Even if balance affect 10% of your win rate there is no way you should be that low.
this season is trying to come up with new things as well as instantly leaving after my first attack fails. no need to drag the match up on hoping for a major mistake… I believe its BM to stay if you are behind…
Unless you are toss and its PvT… why not stay there is always a chance.
1 Like
Would you like to meet in game/Terran Discussion part of forum and share replays/talk a bit more?
Also I just came across another document, so I will leave it here:
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/564037-everything-wrong-with-sc2-and-how-to-fix-it
It was published yesterday, and after brief look there was put more effort in this, than I did in my work. It focuses on different aspect of the game and suggests a redesign of the whole game. Even if I agreed with it (specially Protoss rework), I do not think it is possible with Activision. But I need to read it first.
Im acutally at work now. I wont be off until the week end for something like that.
The small bird. Have many fact wrong. What is the words of saying? Garbage in garbage out… let us hope. It was not of high effort…
XD XD XD
Have small birds. Not heard of ecosystem? Meta is eco system. Of strategies which prey. On each other. Which vary in frequency. And magnitude. According with predator prey equations…
h ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equations
Pls read… small birds… and grow of the bigger brian…
Data concerning PvT match up in Diamond league shows 52.6% win-ratio in PvT on NA and 51.1% win-ratio on EU within past month (8th September-8th October 2020) and overall 53.8% win-ratio in PvT in diamond in Season 44 (I believe 2nd season 2020) on a total sample of 96 771 games.(5)
I do not know how selective the data is, but because of big sample it probably is similar to reality.
I suspect you are missing something in your approach to PvT, what other Diamond Terrans do correctly. When you will be free and have willing to, we can talk/discuss/share replays. Summon me to Terran Discussion or whatever else you want to when the time come. (However your afternoon would be perfect, since I am on EU).
- Global Replays Reporting [Internet].
Sc2replaystats.com. 2020 [Online]. Available from:https://sc2replaystats.com/stats/analytics?group_by%5B%5D=player_division&group_by%5B%5D=matchup&server%5B%5D=us&server%5B%5D=eu&matchup%5B%5D=PvT&matchup%5B%5D=PvZ&matchup%5B%5D=TvZ&format%5B%5D=1v1&game_type%5B%5D=AutoMM&division%5B%5D=diamond&metric_options%5B%5D=games&metric_options%5B%5D=win_percentage&date=June%209,%202020%20-%20October%201,%202020
bad argumentation.
example: on pro lvl, toss have partial problems in late game. but until mid GM, sky toss is strong against zerg.
as a newbie, the games runs like this: from build arms run over, win fight win game ~silver.
1 Like
Even with those win rates and say I was on the lower side of that. You would expect my winrate to be 45%. and then say maybe 10% +/- with in that. say 35%.
I’ve had others try to help and still working with some people… That are higher ranked than me…
I wonder if I can even be helped outside of trying to refine my build order and making it tigther.
Its not really the build orders I have an issue with. I can watch any build order and mimic it. its normally leading up to and / or after that first attack… Whats next.
If it was TvT or TvZ. I know the follow up for each situation.
In toss I wonder what the follow up is for “simple” things like mass I.A.C
This hard counter mech and the longer you stay on bio the more likely you are going to lose… I am looking at my own replays in an attempt to come up with a comletly different strat outside of the norm
Obviously pure mech doesnt work and bio is on a timer.
On another note my PvT has got worst since that 11/2018 toss patch that they love to deny ever happened. but thats another discussion can’t do to much about that now…
1 Like
Yes
Yes, which is why for me it is the Playoff representation. Right now it looks good for Terran, cant judge balance by the one winner.
???
Here you are way wrong, and obv I am not a gsl player… or a GM poster like some lul.
But what you say next is what I’ve said before too - when they tell you L2P - you can improve but bnet matches you same skill so eventually you get the same problems but on higher levels.
You can also add that ‘matches you vs gold protoss while your vs X race MMR is Master’ is nonsense. Dont read such clueless ones here.
Aside of not showing particular game knowledge but the thread being like a side observer, it has some things correct.
Whining daily annoys me too but I feel them with this from personal experience. It is not normal EVERY Terran on ladder to have worst matchup vs Protoss. If it was me vs many others having e.g best mu vs protoss I would say ‘oh it’s just me’.
This was the state of the game in 2018-2019 now I dont have that data but I was looking at Protoss profiles best mu - Terran.
Kind of reminds me of war3 before the recent year changes, in the past Orc felt like Punchbag for human. Always felt Hu’s strongest mu was vs orc. Some even offraced hu to beat orc.
So if Every Terran has worst mu vs Protoss, and Pro players dont - pro players dont because they play vs same few people and if they are INFINITELY better (meaning for example heromarine is always better than Gunfubanda or Geralt… when he matches these 2 players will generate a bunch of 60-70% winrate but when he matches Showtime, then the % drops). It is all based on matching players where you are favored.
If this was Trap constantly matched on ladder, win% would also be different but the idea is skewed again by who is favored.
Even so I do not think balance should be for Ladder heroes… it should be for pros as it is now. Cant say what it is that makes it more difficult for T to play vs P on ladder but there’s something.
And every T is more OK playing vs Zerg… like why we all share the same experience?
Answer - because on ladder you match equal skill and maybe let’s not say balance but design happens - where what players do/dont matter based on how race is designed.
While on pro games, it seems you kind of know the favored player, unless we see e,g Rogue/Trap/Maru/Dark/Serral/Inno where any1 can win .
1 Like
The thread is going way better than I expected. After seeing state of the forum regarding balance talks, my expectations were very low. Thank you very much for engaging and showing me that I am not perfect ^^.
The title is an argument I face in the chapter. My conclusion is:
“It is easier and more effective to balance game around pro players.”.
I do not think I understand your opinion in that part, can you clarify please?
Also results for both GM and Diamond are similar in terms of % win-rate in PvT. (3),(5).
.
.
.
Anyone has an idea or relevant experience to check what is wrong with PvT match-up? Strength and scaling of units? Advantage of one design above another? “Unfair” units?
I suspect many would point out disruptor. I will try compare my performance in PvT match-up with some games with, and some without disruptors.
I wonder if analysis of 10-100 replays with noted strenghts and weaknesses of each player, and corelation of their performance to winning side could be useful. Sounds like work for Excel.
The same as yours.
As someone who has played this game since WoL, I’d say the design was always - terran can win at 8th min or lose late game. There were times like in 2017 where Protoss wasnt so strong to always win late game and could lose. But patch from Nov 2017 overbuffed them and made them strong in 2018 vs Terran.
Shield battery proxy, overcharge battery etc just made protoss be able to hold what previously allowed Terran to beat them early. Also they changed cyclone, proxies were nerfed, so if terran couldnt win early game with all protoss defenses, late game was even worse for terran. Thats part of the prob imo. Even if they nerfed protoss they allow them to survive and in expandcraft terran time is ticking - if you cant beat them early gg, you can if they mess up but if their economy is not damaged and you try to compete w economy as Terran, well you lose.
For me the TvP win rate went from over 60% in 2017 to always 40% or under. If it was just me fine but all Terran suddenly went bad? Pro level is different story tho
1 Like