It should work because damage sync works on 1/16 intervals which is much shorter than 0.4 seconds, but still a lot of damage will be wasted for units attacking different carts.
The ability is good at destroying vipers and ravens, and buildings in DoN but not much else. Tempest is a effective counter against units that have a high armor value. They are particularly good at shooting enemy disruptor/reavers/hybrids while your dragoon ball kite away to avoid taking damage.
Or you can just split your goons / army, rush a few in to soak the brunt of the damage, as you drop a power field and warp in fresh troops with the big attack speed buff. Axelots, goons, immortals, reavers, high templar for storms and then merge em into archons when they’re out of energy; whatever floats your boat.
Tempests aren’t the worst unit ever, but they’re certainly not the best unit ever, either. The only notable time Tempests might be the backbone of an Artanis army is vs certain mutators like Minesweeper, or mutator combos like Minesweeper and Polarity. Lol remember that silliness on Mist Opportunities a while back?
Now that’s cleared up. I rather they make Tempest a full-pledge siege unit or revamp it. It is even a worse joke than the BC.
Been countless matches that i seen Fenix mass carrier, Karax mass carrier, Artanis mass tempest and those units are even worse than a ladder zealot.
Tempest is
_ not a general purpose units because it underperforms compare to Dragoons or any other units of Artanis.
_ not a specialised unit because basically it is worse vs anything else compare to how other units are.
Suggestion to remake Tempest. Pick one of the 4 below.
1st alternative - Siege-unit Tempest
Deal (+30) damage vs buildings
Disintegrate causes a debuff that affect only buildings that make them take triple damage from all source.
2nd alternative - Anti-air deathball Tempest
Disintegrate can only target air units and deal AOE damage to air units only. Multiple Disintegrate balls do NOT stack.
3rd alternative - debuff deathball Tempest
Disintegrate, in addition to deal damage over time, also prevent enemy unit or building from attacking. Heroic are slowed instead (25%)
4th alternative - Anti-boss Tempest
Disintegrate stack infinitely with other Disintegrate. Multiple Disintegrate have its own timer and deal damage accordingly.
Tempests definitely have niche uses. But they could be better, and the best way to do it would be to give them 10, or at least 8, AA range.
Tempest/cannon and (way more importantly) a competent ally. The last part took a long time to find.
They are not as bad as some making them out to be. Part of the problem is that (as a long range, siege like, expensive, late tech unit) many don’t take advantage of it. Too many players are in the mind set of “mass x”, “wait for y number”, then push out.
This same concept can be seen by HH’s Galleon. A single Galleon/Tempest can get quite a bit done, as this important tip is also mentioned in TL’s guide. It isn’t the only golden rule but does have clear merit.
Undoubtedly, they have many flaws as outlined in previous posts by many. However, their actual push time is only a few minutes behind any other average build. (Exceptions excluding any definitive counter).
Valid point, but there’s a difference. The biggest reason HH galleons are used for siege is they don’t put themselves at risk of dying while you build up your army. They tend to not die because you have a handful before the 3 minute mark, and nothing that early will kill your galleons.
You’re going to have galleons anyway as HH. There is no realistic alternative. “Hey, I have these units that are good at siege. Might as well use them.” But tempests are a chore to tech to. By the time you have them, they’re so easily countered that there’s no point in having them in the first place. Like I said in my OP:
Not to mention that dragoons are straight up better siege units than tempests. You can get a large ball of them quickly, they are cheap to replace, attack faster, overkill less, do more dps per supply, have more range vs air, have more move speed to kite enemies, etc. I bring this up because the tempest’s and galleon’s “pick apart bases over time” applies to dragoons, but dragoons are just better at it.
It’s true HH is locked into Galleon as tech paths go. There are a few things I’d like to add to the above specifically though.
My previous post is only meant to bring attention back to buffing or changing Tempests while showcasing despite their many flaws, one that isn’t mentioned, is that players I’ve seen are not maximizing their use - this lead to their further detriment and poor perception.
Your comparison is literally off the mark there.
Losing one galleon is almost even less a problem than losing a Dragoon resource-wise unless you are talking about Jet-fighter Galleon which in this case outstrip Tempest in both damage and range and are very unlikely to be killed due to it having those fighters as distraction. Not to mention an even higher health and the ability to be repaired by SCV while Tempest does not have that luxury. The only drawback of Galleon is its limited number.
Tempest flaws are fatal. It is the last of the techtree. It is among the costliest gas-wise in Artanis arsenal. Its usage is not even niche but rarely be useful.
Compare 2 army of the same supply a mass dragoons vs a Tempest-Dragoon i see the former can defense, attack, kite better than the latter.
Tempest does not even have a niche use. It does not even outperform any units in Artanis army in any situation. That’s its fatal flaw.
In vs, it is to some degree ok even with coop stats but we don’t do kiting in Coop as much as Ladder. We need something that can be thrown out there fast or at least latter but accomplish the task faster. Time is the essence in coop even worse than Ladder.
I ‘ve seen my fair share if people using Tempest and as far as my 80 mastery go i have not recognise a single smart use of Tempest in any situation. Tempest is a dead end.
Um… I think you misread. I’m comparing Tempest against Galleon… not to a Dragoon.
Your rant seem to be focused on that and went off topic. Nobody is saying Dragoon is worse than Tempest here. A suggestion or two about how to improve Tempest might be useful…
Edit: what is wrong with people and going off topic lately.
Or he’s just making his own case for his opinions, without going off of what you had been saying / sticking to only what you had been saying…
And as far as I’m concerned, he’s pretty much right on the money regarding the inadequacy of Tempests and how goofy that situation is, since they are the final tier of combat unit for Artanis.
Also, I’ll take a Galleon over a Tempest anyday, especially with the carrier upgrade. The only drawbacks to them is that they’re limited to 5 and they’re your barracks, so if you lose any, that can severely hinder your production / replenishment. But galleons are pretty hard to lose, especially with the carrier upgrade, so that’s not an issue anyone should have very frequently.
Also, if you go straight for tempest as Artanis, you are severely gimping yourself in the early game and putting all the responsibility on your ally to get y’all through the early / mid game. It’s literally the worst combat unit strategy Artanis can go for (going straight to Tempest from the start of the mission), and Tempests can easily be countered by many enemy compositions, especially on Brutal. Good thing you have Guardian Shell lol.
The only time Tempest first can be a good choice is on certain maps vs mutators like Minesweeper, but even then, Dragoons are fine for that sort of thing, as long as you’re paying attention and are relatively tight and precise with your movement controls / micro.
TL; DR:
Tempests aren’t the worst unit in co-op, they’re just the worst unit in Artanis’s selection, and they’re almost astonishingly lackluster for a tier 3 unit; particularly an air unit and especially a “capital ship.”
Years ago a common suggestion for artanis was to swap tempests for carriers. Not sure if it’s still popular, but I think carriers with an upgrade to increase max interceptors as well as the interceptor build time could be interesting. Since artanis can warp his capital ships in anywhere, and his star gates have 3 charges, he could mass carriers quite easily.
Then, perhaps Karax could have the purifier tempest (I.e with the lotv campaign skin, different from Fenix’s skins). Karax version of the tempest could have a small rework to better fit his kit. Perhaps have disintegration as a passive effect that deals a small amount of damage over time, as well as the repair drones his current carriers have. And maybe longer range for both air and ground attacks to emphasize their siege roles.
Just thematically, it would be nice for Karax to have more purifier skins and artanis to have more Aiur associated units. Yes tempests are normally aiur units, but artanis tempests use the purifier voice set and disintegration ability from the campaign.
I donno about balance, but I’d love to see Artanis with Karax’s carriers and that heal bot upgrade.
It’s bloody worthless on Karax who already has his heal beam, but on Artanis it would be a very expensive way to have a strong support unit that can distract enemies and heal allies, without doing THAT much damage overall.
I really like your idea about Purifier Tempests for Karax as well. Special abilities and stuff. Something worth the +30% unit cost.
I use, and see people using Tempest for Dead of Night missions.
They are surprisingly good enough to defend the base, and then go out and destroy buildings.
Personally I would turn them more into a capital ship than into a spammable unit, like this:
600/400/8 is very similar to a Tyrannozor, 1 supply less. Tyrannozor being an unit with ridiculous amounts of AoE, health, armor and support.
Regarding for Artantis, it always struck me as weird that the Tempest had those range values. I have more than enough tools to destroy ground units, such as Reavers, Immortals, spinlots, Archons, & now Dragoons.
I see that a few suggest Tempest should be a siege unit, and i’m sort of against it simply because, that’s probably what the Reaver should fill for Artanis. I rather see the devs not make units fill the same role if they can. Also, though splash damage for Tempest would be nice, Storms, Spinlots, & reavers sort of have that covered already.
The ideal role I would imagine Tempest would fit for Artantis would be Far-Range Anti-Air unit with decent ground support. At least then, it would crave a role for itself within Artantis’ army. Dragoon are the only unit that sort of fill that role, but I imagine the Tempest would be better because they would have far more range, won’t body block themselves from attacking, and they fly.
So personal changes that I wish for like the longest time:
EDIT: Actually, considering that Amon’s Tempest would gets these stats as well, maybe instead start that Tempest with 11 & 7 range for air & ground respectively, then have an upgrade at the Fleet Beacon that increase it to 14 & 8.
This is something I still like to think about now and then, if only because it makes so much sense. Artanis with Carriers and Karax with Tempests are a such a better fit, that it still boggles my mind that the developers went with what they did, especially for a reason as inconsequential as Karax being the player character who wields them first in the campaign. Going for Lore over Gameplay considerations is always been a bit of an aggravating point for me, especially when other lore arguments could be made.
Carriers synergize better with Artanis and his abilities by virtue of giving him a source of healing for his units and structures, allowing Artanis to repair his mechanical vehicles after they have been saved by Guardian Shell. In addition, Carriers are a BW unit, that fit well thematically with Artanis and his BW-centric army composition.
On the other hand, Karax would greatly benefit from having Tempests by virtue of another Purifier unit in his arsenal, the Energizer. The attack speed boost would help offset the big nuisance that Tempests have, which is their slow attack speed and tendency to overkill, while the long range Disintegration fits more to Karax’s defensive design of letting enemies wither away as they crash against his defenses. As well, thematically they fit Karax and his Purifier armaments because Tempests have both a Purifier Skin and Voice Over, which goes along with his Purifier Colossi that also use Purifier aesthetics.
They have made sweeping changes in the past to Coop and Commanders, and I honestly wish they would give consideration to making such a change as simply swapping capital ships and upgrades for them and seeing how both commanders feel in terms of fun and strength. At the very least, it would be nice to at least have them officially bring it up on a forum post and see what the community things as a whole on the idea of Artanis and Karax swapping vessels and upgrades.
I agree. Carriers would be a much better fit with artanis. Also, I think people under estimate how good artanis stargates are, essentially 3 in 1. Artanis could warp in a half a dozen carriers to the front instantly.
Healing drones are interesting. Karax arguably doesn’t need them due to global repair beam. Would they be too good with artanis? I think they would help shore up a weakness on him without diluting his or Karax’s identity. If artanis had carriers with repair drones, it would still take a considerable investment to get enough to repair significant numbers of dragoons, immortals or reavers and especially Phoenix, and would offer a cool alternative play style to Templar spam
Assuming that the artanis player took the time to hold on to all the resources to warp in 6 carriers at once, sure
They could probably get away with that pretty easily on some maps, especially with a good ally playing on a commander with a fast ramp up / strong start
Outside of that though, could be risky if you’re just an average player playing with another average player
But yeah, warping in 6+ carriers instantly, with the attack speed buff, would be pretty satisfying I’m sure
I think the issue with artanis carriers having repair drones is that it doesn’t really fit from a thematic perspective
Frankly, ive never been a huge fan of Artanis’ only non-fighter ship being the tempest. As a capital ship, it’s already a pretty niche unit, but without something like the void ray or scout to pair it with, it just isn’t a very useful unit period. It’s a precision strike unit in a game mode that’s about causing as much carnage as possible over as wide an area as possible, and even within its specific job, dragoons and immortals will do it better.
Although I was thinking of just a straight swap for Artanis and Karax, if Tempests still end up being lackluster due to their short range and Disintegration’s low damage over time, an easy fix would be to make an upgrade include them. Specifically, Phasing Armor for Mirages altered to also include Tempests, similarly to Corsair’s Stealth Drive including Oracles. The brief periods of invincibility along with the reconstruction regen could offset the somewhat weaksauce range Tempests have, and the nifty part is that it fits the lore well. Phasing Armor works because the pilot is not organic and can survive the phasing process, and Purifier Tempests are robots just like Mirages. This also has the advantage of reducing the research process to get his air fleet upgraded, since Karax already has a ton of things to research.
I don’t think Carriers swapped to Artanis would need anything. Between Guardian Shell and the Warp In Speed Boost/Ability Cooldown masteries, Carriers under Artanis’s command could easily build and maintain a huge fleet of Interceptors.